Reported / indirect speech - why no backshift











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I've come across the following example sentences and I wonder why only one part of the sentence requires backshift when put into reported speech. I am familiar with the general rules as well as exceptions (still true, future ...) but I still can't come up with an explanation:



The pilot’s words were: ‘The weather was extremely bad as the plane came in to land.’



Reported speech: The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.



was extremely bad -> had been extremely bad // plane came in -> plane came in



To me, both the weather and the action of the plane coming in to land are in the past.
Why don't we backshift the second part:
The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.



Or, what about this one:



Barbara said, “I didn’t realise it was midnight.”



Barbara said she hadn’t realised it was midnight.



Is it okay to say: Barbara said she hadn't realised that it had been midnight.



Thank you!










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    up vote
    5
    down vote

    favorite
    1












    I've come across the following example sentences and I wonder why only one part of the sentence requires backshift when put into reported speech. I am familiar with the general rules as well as exceptions (still true, future ...) but I still can't come up with an explanation:



    The pilot’s words were: ‘The weather was extremely bad as the plane came in to land.’



    Reported speech: The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.



    was extremely bad -> had been extremely bad // plane came in -> plane came in



    To me, both the weather and the action of the plane coming in to land are in the past.
    Why don't we backshift the second part:
    The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.



    Or, what about this one:



    Barbara said, “I didn’t realise it was midnight.”



    Barbara said she hadn’t realised it was midnight.



    Is it okay to say: Barbara said she hadn't realised that it had been midnight.



    Thank you!










    share|improve this question







    New contributor




    verda is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      up vote
      5
      down vote

      favorite
      1









      up vote
      5
      down vote

      favorite
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      1





      I've come across the following example sentences and I wonder why only one part of the sentence requires backshift when put into reported speech. I am familiar with the general rules as well as exceptions (still true, future ...) but I still can't come up with an explanation:



      The pilot’s words were: ‘The weather was extremely bad as the plane came in to land.’



      Reported speech: The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.



      was extremely bad -> had been extremely bad // plane came in -> plane came in



      To me, both the weather and the action of the plane coming in to land are in the past.
      Why don't we backshift the second part:
      The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.



      Or, what about this one:



      Barbara said, “I didn’t realise it was midnight.”



      Barbara said she hadn’t realised it was midnight.



      Is it okay to say: Barbara said she hadn't realised that it had been midnight.



      Thank you!










      share|improve this question







      New contributor




      verda is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      I've come across the following example sentences and I wonder why only one part of the sentence requires backshift when put into reported speech. I am familiar with the general rules as well as exceptions (still true, future ...) but I still can't come up with an explanation:



      The pilot’s words were: ‘The weather was extremely bad as the plane came in to land.’



      Reported speech: The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.



      was extremely bad -> had been extremely bad // plane came in -> plane came in



      To me, both the weather and the action of the plane coming in to land are in the past.
      Why don't we backshift the second part:
      The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.



      Or, what about this one:



      Barbara said, “I didn’t realise it was midnight.”



      Barbara said she hadn’t realised it was midnight.



      Is it okay to say: Barbara said she hadn't realised that it had been midnight.



      Thank you!







      grammar






      share|improve this question







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      verda is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      share|improve this question







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      verda

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          2 Answers
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          This goes to the distinction between tense and aspect: when you use an inflected form of have + [past participle], the primary marking is perfective aspect: you are saying that as of some time, a particular action being referred to had been completed, and its completion is relevant at the reference time of the matrix clause (i.e., the time of speaking or of reporting).



          In this case, the weather being bad and the plane landing were things that were happening simultaneously, so perfective aspect is not appropriate. It would also clash syntactically with using the as + [clause] construction, which requires that the subordinate clause be able to take an imperfective reading. Compare the following two sentences (the asterisk means it sounds ungrammatical to me):




          They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas came through the door.

          *They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas had come through the door.




          Finally, note that came in the subordinate clause is in its preterite form so a past time interpretation is there as needed for backshift.






          share|improve this answer




























            up vote
            2
            down vote













            It is all to do with tense simplification in subordinate clauses:



            It should – logically – be




            *The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.




            but, because of tense simplification in the subordinate (time) clause, it becomes, as you noticed,




            The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.




            Let me quote Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, Oxford University Press, second edition, fourth impression, 1996, page 583, entry 556, "tense simplification in subordinate clauses":




            1 reasons for tense simplification



            If the main verb of a sentence makes it clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the subordinate clauses. Compare:



            This discovery means that we will spend less on food.



            This discovery will mean that we spend less on food.



            It is unlikely that he will win.



            I will pray that he wins.



            Verbs in subordinate clauses are often simpler in form than verbs in main clauses – for example present instead of future, simple past instead of conditional, simple past instead of past perfect.



            You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go. (NOT… wherever you will go.)



            He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than… that would go against his conscience.)



            I hadn't understood what he said. (More natural than… what he had said.)




            If – like myself – you are not a native speaker of English, you must have noticed that in bilingual editions of books, the side which has the English version of the text is – nearly always – considerably shorter than the side which has the version in another language: the English version is much more concise than the version in a foreign language.



            To me, this reflects a mentality – inbred, a question of nurture, not of nature – characterized by a kind of abhorrence for redundancy: since "had been" establishes that the time the weather was such and such came before the time the pilot "commented" on it, and since the conjunction "as" establishes that the time the weather was such and such and the time the plane "came in" to land were contemporaneous, the speaker or writer feels they can do without a "had come in", sparing themself a word to pronounce or write!



            I have given such an answer already to the question entitled "I remembered seeing or having seem him?", which asks the same question.






            share|improve this answer























            • I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
              – tchrist
              29 mins ago











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            2 Answers
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            2 Answers
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            active

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            up vote
            3
            down vote













            This goes to the distinction between tense and aspect: when you use an inflected form of have + [past participle], the primary marking is perfective aspect: you are saying that as of some time, a particular action being referred to had been completed, and its completion is relevant at the reference time of the matrix clause (i.e., the time of speaking or of reporting).



            In this case, the weather being bad and the plane landing were things that were happening simultaneously, so perfective aspect is not appropriate. It would also clash syntactically with using the as + [clause] construction, which requires that the subordinate clause be able to take an imperfective reading. Compare the following two sentences (the asterisk means it sounds ungrammatical to me):




            They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas came through the door.

            *They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas had come through the door.




            Finally, note that came in the subordinate clause is in its preterite form so a past time interpretation is there as needed for backshift.






            share|improve this answer

























              up vote
              3
              down vote













              This goes to the distinction between tense and aspect: when you use an inflected form of have + [past participle], the primary marking is perfective aspect: you are saying that as of some time, a particular action being referred to had been completed, and its completion is relevant at the reference time of the matrix clause (i.e., the time of speaking or of reporting).



              In this case, the weather being bad and the plane landing were things that were happening simultaneously, so perfective aspect is not appropriate. It would also clash syntactically with using the as + [clause] construction, which requires that the subordinate clause be able to take an imperfective reading. Compare the following two sentences (the asterisk means it sounds ungrammatical to me):




              They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas came through the door.

              *They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas had come through the door.




              Finally, note that came in the subordinate clause is in its preterite form so a past time interpretation is there as needed for backshift.






              share|improve this answer























                up vote
                3
                down vote










                up vote
                3
                down vote









                This goes to the distinction between tense and aspect: when you use an inflected form of have + [past participle], the primary marking is perfective aspect: you are saying that as of some time, a particular action being referred to had been completed, and its completion is relevant at the reference time of the matrix clause (i.e., the time of speaking or of reporting).



                In this case, the weather being bad and the plane landing were things that were happening simultaneously, so perfective aspect is not appropriate. It would also clash syntactically with using the as + [clause] construction, which requires that the subordinate clause be able to take an imperfective reading. Compare the following two sentences (the asterisk means it sounds ungrammatical to me):




                They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas came through the door.

                *They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas had come through the door.




                Finally, note that came in the subordinate clause is in its preterite form so a past time interpretation is there as needed for backshift.






                share|improve this answer












                This goes to the distinction between tense and aspect: when you use an inflected form of have + [past participle], the primary marking is perfective aspect: you are saying that as of some time, a particular action being referred to had been completed, and its completion is relevant at the reference time of the matrix clause (i.e., the time of speaking or of reporting).



                In this case, the weather being bad and the plane landing were things that were happening simultaneously, so perfective aspect is not appropriate. It would also clash syntactically with using the as + [clause] construction, which requires that the subordinate clause be able to take an imperfective reading. Compare the following two sentences (the asterisk means it sounds ungrammatical to me):




                They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas came through the door.

                *They had been shelling fava beans as Thomas had come through the door.




                Finally, note that came in the subordinate clause is in its preterite form so a past time interpretation is there as needed for backshift.







                share|improve this answer












                share|improve this answer



                share|improve this answer










                answered 2 hours ago









                jlovegren

                11.8k12143




                11.8k12143
























                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote













                    It is all to do with tense simplification in subordinate clauses:



                    It should – logically – be




                    *The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.




                    but, because of tense simplification in the subordinate (time) clause, it becomes, as you noticed,




                    The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.




                    Let me quote Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, Oxford University Press, second edition, fourth impression, 1996, page 583, entry 556, "tense simplification in subordinate clauses":




                    1 reasons for tense simplification



                    If the main verb of a sentence makes it clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the subordinate clauses. Compare:



                    This discovery means that we will spend less on food.



                    This discovery will mean that we spend less on food.



                    It is unlikely that he will win.



                    I will pray that he wins.



                    Verbs in subordinate clauses are often simpler in form than verbs in main clauses – for example present instead of future, simple past instead of conditional, simple past instead of past perfect.



                    You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go. (NOT… wherever you will go.)



                    He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than… that would go against his conscience.)



                    I hadn't understood what he said. (More natural than… what he had said.)




                    If – like myself – you are not a native speaker of English, you must have noticed that in bilingual editions of books, the side which has the English version of the text is – nearly always – considerably shorter than the side which has the version in another language: the English version is much more concise than the version in a foreign language.



                    To me, this reflects a mentality – inbred, a question of nurture, not of nature – characterized by a kind of abhorrence for redundancy: since "had been" establishes that the time the weather was such and such came before the time the pilot "commented" on it, and since the conjunction "as" establishes that the time the weather was such and such and the time the plane "came in" to land were contemporaneous, the speaker or writer feels they can do without a "had come in", sparing themself a word to pronounce or write!



                    I have given such an answer already to the question entitled "I remembered seeing or having seem him?", which asks the same question.






                    share|improve this answer























                    • I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
                      – tchrist
                      29 mins ago















                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote













                    It is all to do with tense simplification in subordinate clauses:



                    It should – logically – be




                    *The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.




                    but, because of tense simplification in the subordinate (time) clause, it becomes, as you noticed,




                    The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.




                    Let me quote Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, Oxford University Press, second edition, fourth impression, 1996, page 583, entry 556, "tense simplification in subordinate clauses":




                    1 reasons for tense simplification



                    If the main verb of a sentence makes it clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the subordinate clauses. Compare:



                    This discovery means that we will spend less on food.



                    This discovery will mean that we spend less on food.



                    It is unlikely that he will win.



                    I will pray that he wins.



                    Verbs in subordinate clauses are often simpler in form than verbs in main clauses – for example present instead of future, simple past instead of conditional, simple past instead of past perfect.



                    You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go. (NOT… wherever you will go.)



                    He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than… that would go against his conscience.)



                    I hadn't understood what he said. (More natural than… what he had said.)




                    If – like myself – you are not a native speaker of English, you must have noticed that in bilingual editions of books, the side which has the English version of the text is – nearly always – considerably shorter than the side which has the version in another language: the English version is much more concise than the version in a foreign language.



                    To me, this reflects a mentality – inbred, a question of nurture, not of nature – characterized by a kind of abhorrence for redundancy: since "had been" establishes that the time the weather was such and such came before the time the pilot "commented" on it, and since the conjunction "as" establishes that the time the weather was such and such and the time the plane "came in" to land were contemporaneous, the speaker or writer feels they can do without a "had come in", sparing themself a word to pronounce or write!



                    I have given such an answer already to the question entitled "I remembered seeing or having seem him?", which asks the same question.






                    share|improve this answer























                    • I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
                      – tchrist
                      29 mins ago













                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote










                    up vote
                    2
                    down vote









                    It is all to do with tense simplification in subordinate clauses:



                    It should – logically – be




                    *The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.




                    but, because of tense simplification in the subordinate (time) clause, it becomes, as you noticed,




                    The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.




                    Let me quote Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, Oxford University Press, second edition, fourth impression, 1996, page 583, entry 556, "tense simplification in subordinate clauses":




                    1 reasons for tense simplification



                    If the main verb of a sentence makes it clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the subordinate clauses. Compare:



                    This discovery means that we will spend less on food.



                    This discovery will mean that we spend less on food.



                    It is unlikely that he will win.



                    I will pray that he wins.



                    Verbs in subordinate clauses are often simpler in form than verbs in main clauses – for example present instead of future, simple past instead of conditional, simple past instead of past perfect.



                    You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go. (NOT… wherever you will go.)



                    He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than… that would go against his conscience.)



                    I hadn't understood what he said. (More natural than… what he had said.)




                    If – like myself – you are not a native speaker of English, you must have noticed that in bilingual editions of books, the side which has the English version of the text is – nearly always – considerably shorter than the side which has the version in another language: the English version is much more concise than the version in a foreign language.



                    To me, this reflects a mentality – inbred, a question of nurture, not of nature – characterized by a kind of abhorrence for redundancy: since "had been" establishes that the time the weather was such and such came before the time the pilot "commented" on it, and since the conjunction "as" establishes that the time the weather was such and such and the time the plane "came in" to land were contemporaneous, the speaker or writer feels they can do without a "had come in", sparing themself a word to pronounce or write!



                    I have given such an answer already to the question entitled "I remembered seeing or having seem him?", which asks the same question.






                    share|improve this answer














                    It is all to do with tense simplification in subordinate clauses:



                    It should – logically – be




                    *The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane had come in to land.




                    but, because of tense simplification in the subordinate (time) clause, it becomes, as you noticed,




                    The pilot commented that the weather had been extremely bad as the plane came in to land.




                    Let me quote Michael Swan's Practical English Usage, Oxford University Press, second edition, fourth impression, 1996, page 583, entry 556, "tense simplification in subordinate clauses":




                    1 reasons for tense simplification



                    If the main verb of a sentence makes it clear what kind of time the speaker is talking about, it is not always necessary for the same time to be indicated again in the subordinate clauses. Compare:



                    This discovery means that we will spend less on food.



                    This discovery will mean that we spend less on food.



                    It is unlikely that he will win.



                    I will pray that he wins.



                    Verbs in subordinate clauses are often simpler in form than verbs in main clauses – for example present instead of future, simple past instead of conditional, simple past instead of past perfect.



                    You'll find Coca-Cola wherever you go. (NOT… wherever you will go.)



                    He would never do anything that went against his conscience. (More natural than… that would go against his conscience.)



                    I hadn't understood what he said. (More natural than… what he had said.)




                    If – like myself – you are not a native speaker of English, you must have noticed that in bilingual editions of books, the side which has the English version of the text is – nearly always – considerably shorter than the side which has the version in another language: the English version is much more concise than the version in a foreign language.



                    To me, this reflects a mentality – inbred, a question of nurture, not of nature – characterized by a kind of abhorrence for redundancy: since "had been" establishes that the time the weather was such and such came before the time the pilot "commented" on it, and since the conjunction "as" establishes that the time the weather was such and such and the time the plane "came in" to land were contemporaneous, the speaker or writer feels they can do without a "had come in", sparing themself a word to pronounce or write!



                    I have given such an answer already to the question entitled "I remembered seeing or having seem him?", which asks the same question.







                    share|improve this answer














                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 35 mins ago

























                    answered 1 hour ago









                    user58319

                    2,00773064




                    2,00773064












                    • I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
                      – tchrist
                      29 mins ago


















                    • I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
                      – tchrist
                      29 mins ago
















                    I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
                    – tchrist
                    29 mins ago




                    I’m not con­vinced that tense-sim­pli­fi­ca­tion alone, though a real phe­no­me­non fre­quently seen in English, fully ex­plains the asker’s sce­nario. In lan­guages with clearly marked mor­pho­log­i­cal dis­tinc­tions in a verb’s per­fect-vs-im­per­fect as­pect, one al­ways asks one­self when trans­lat­ing from EN into those lan­guages which of the two pasts (per­fect, im­per­fect) one chooses for each verb. As a men­tal ex­er­cise—us­ing na­tive skill not Goo­gle trans­late—try hand-trans­lat­ing the orig­i­nal and back­shifted sen­tence into any of FR, IT, ES, PT to see what I mean.
                    – tchrist
                    29 mins ago










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