What values do I recalculate when I Wild Shape?
up vote
6
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When I Wild Shape, I take a beast's STR, DEX, and CON scores. I keep my proficiency bonus and my INT, WIS, and CHA scores. I will focus this question on the assumption I'm proficient in Athletics, and I'm turning into a beast also proficient with Athletics.
- I have +0 STR and +3 Proficiency, so +3 in Athletics
- Beast has +2 STR and a +4 bonus in Athletics
What is my Athletics bonus now?
On one hand, I keep my +3 proficiency bonus (so if I calculated things from scratch, I should have Athletics = +2 STR + 3 Prof = +5). On the other, tweets like this claim I should just use the beast's modifier, a +4, since it is higher than my Druid's +3.
A druid in beast form uses his or her proficiencies, except when the beast has the same proficiency with a higher bonus.
But in this case, I'm now a creature with +2 STR, +3 Prof, and a +4 in an Athletics skill I'm proficient with. Can anyone confirm if I do or do not recalculate proficiency bonuses when I Wild Shape (or Shapeshift)? The rules are not explicit, and the way I've interpreted them is that you take the new STR, DEX, CON scores, and recalculate modifiers for your skills. After this, if the Beast had a better bonus than you now have, you then take its bonus.
Similar question, but it mostly refers to interactions with Expertise and other edge-cases. I'm looking for an (preferably backed-up by RAW or official comment) answer on whether I should recalculate my stats to accommodation my Proficiency Bonus with my new STR, DEX, or CON modifiers.
Also keep in mind, from this question, it seems a reasonable opinion that we should recalculate bonuses when scores change. But if you don't recalculate any proficiencies, how would this be affected? You could be cursed to negative STR and keep a massive athletic bonus.
dnd-5e skills druid wild-shape proficiency
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
When I Wild Shape, I take a beast's STR, DEX, and CON scores. I keep my proficiency bonus and my INT, WIS, and CHA scores. I will focus this question on the assumption I'm proficient in Athletics, and I'm turning into a beast also proficient with Athletics.
- I have +0 STR and +3 Proficiency, so +3 in Athletics
- Beast has +2 STR and a +4 bonus in Athletics
What is my Athletics bonus now?
On one hand, I keep my +3 proficiency bonus (so if I calculated things from scratch, I should have Athletics = +2 STR + 3 Prof = +5). On the other, tweets like this claim I should just use the beast's modifier, a +4, since it is higher than my Druid's +3.
A druid in beast form uses his or her proficiencies, except when the beast has the same proficiency with a higher bonus.
But in this case, I'm now a creature with +2 STR, +3 Prof, and a +4 in an Athletics skill I'm proficient with. Can anyone confirm if I do or do not recalculate proficiency bonuses when I Wild Shape (or Shapeshift)? The rules are not explicit, and the way I've interpreted them is that you take the new STR, DEX, CON scores, and recalculate modifiers for your skills. After this, if the Beast had a better bonus than you now have, you then take its bonus.
Similar question, but it mostly refers to interactions with Expertise and other edge-cases. I'm looking for an (preferably backed-up by RAW or official comment) answer on whether I should recalculate my stats to accommodation my Proficiency Bonus with my new STR, DEX, or CON modifiers.
Also keep in mind, from this question, it seems a reasonable opinion that we should recalculate bonuses when scores change. But if you don't recalculate any proficiencies, how would this be affected? You could be cursed to negative STR and keep a massive athletic bonus.
dnd-5e skills druid wild-shape proficiency
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
The second question you link has no rules justifications in the accepted answer (it literally starts off with "I say Yes"). Whether or not the strength drain ability of the shadow affects the beast form, the PC form, or both needs to be addressed before that question can be answered properly. In the case of Wild Shape, you are "magically assuming" the form of the beast (and as such magically applying the better proficiency). What happens to that magically applies proficiency will depend on the answer to which form is affected by the shadow drain.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:24
It also literally says in the accepted answer (to the second linked question on shadow draining) "That's just my thoughts on this"...
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:26
I also said that for the answer to be applied to your question we need to know which form is affected by the Shadow's strength drain (so we can determine which character sheet needs to be recalculated, to determine if the Athletics skill is recalculated)
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:37
The Athletics skill stat in your example isn't coming from the current form...it's magically coming from the underlying PC form, hence the need to know which form the attack affects.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:42
That probably qualifies for another question. Feel free to ask it
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:56
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
up vote
6
down vote
favorite
When I Wild Shape, I take a beast's STR, DEX, and CON scores. I keep my proficiency bonus and my INT, WIS, and CHA scores. I will focus this question on the assumption I'm proficient in Athletics, and I'm turning into a beast also proficient with Athletics.
- I have +0 STR and +3 Proficiency, so +3 in Athletics
- Beast has +2 STR and a +4 bonus in Athletics
What is my Athletics bonus now?
On one hand, I keep my +3 proficiency bonus (so if I calculated things from scratch, I should have Athletics = +2 STR + 3 Prof = +5). On the other, tweets like this claim I should just use the beast's modifier, a +4, since it is higher than my Druid's +3.
A druid in beast form uses his or her proficiencies, except when the beast has the same proficiency with a higher bonus.
But in this case, I'm now a creature with +2 STR, +3 Prof, and a +4 in an Athletics skill I'm proficient with. Can anyone confirm if I do or do not recalculate proficiency bonuses when I Wild Shape (or Shapeshift)? The rules are not explicit, and the way I've interpreted them is that you take the new STR, DEX, CON scores, and recalculate modifiers for your skills. After this, if the Beast had a better bonus than you now have, you then take its bonus.
Similar question, but it mostly refers to interactions with Expertise and other edge-cases. I'm looking for an (preferably backed-up by RAW or official comment) answer on whether I should recalculate my stats to accommodation my Proficiency Bonus with my new STR, DEX, or CON modifiers.
Also keep in mind, from this question, it seems a reasonable opinion that we should recalculate bonuses when scores change. But if you don't recalculate any proficiencies, how would this be affected? You could be cursed to negative STR and keep a massive athletic bonus.
dnd-5e skills druid wild-shape proficiency
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
When I Wild Shape, I take a beast's STR, DEX, and CON scores. I keep my proficiency bonus and my INT, WIS, and CHA scores. I will focus this question on the assumption I'm proficient in Athletics, and I'm turning into a beast also proficient with Athletics.
- I have +0 STR and +3 Proficiency, so +3 in Athletics
- Beast has +2 STR and a +4 bonus in Athletics
What is my Athletics bonus now?
On one hand, I keep my +3 proficiency bonus (so if I calculated things from scratch, I should have Athletics = +2 STR + 3 Prof = +5). On the other, tweets like this claim I should just use the beast's modifier, a +4, since it is higher than my Druid's +3.
A druid in beast form uses his or her proficiencies, except when the beast has the same proficiency with a higher bonus.
But in this case, I'm now a creature with +2 STR, +3 Prof, and a +4 in an Athletics skill I'm proficient with. Can anyone confirm if I do or do not recalculate proficiency bonuses when I Wild Shape (or Shapeshift)? The rules are not explicit, and the way I've interpreted them is that you take the new STR, DEX, CON scores, and recalculate modifiers for your skills. After this, if the Beast had a better bonus than you now have, you then take its bonus.
Similar question, but it mostly refers to interactions with Expertise and other edge-cases. I'm looking for an (preferably backed-up by RAW or official comment) answer on whether I should recalculate my stats to accommodation my Proficiency Bonus with my new STR, DEX, or CON modifiers.
Also keep in mind, from this question, it seems a reasonable opinion that we should recalculate bonuses when scores change. But if you don't recalculate any proficiencies, how would this be affected? You could be cursed to negative STR and keep a massive athletic bonus.
dnd-5e skills druid wild-shape proficiency
dnd-5e skills druid wild-shape proficiency
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
edited Nov 22 at 15:41
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
asked Nov 22 at 14:22
BlueMoon93
12.4k965131
12.4k965131
The second question you link has no rules justifications in the accepted answer (it literally starts off with "I say Yes"). Whether or not the strength drain ability of the shadow affects the beast form, the PC form, or both needs to be addressed before that question can be answered properly. In the case of Wild Shape, you are "magically assuming" the form of the beast (and as such magically applying the better proficiency). What happens to that magically applies proficiency will depend on the answer to which form is affected by the shadow drain.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:24
It also literally says in the accepted answer (to the second linked question on shadow draining) "That's just my thoughts on this"...
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:26
I also said that for the answer to be applied to your question we need to know which form is affected by the Shadow's strength drain (so we can determine which character sheet needs to be recalculated, to determine if the Athletics skill is recalculated)
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:37
The Athletics skill stat in your example isn't coming from the current form...it's magically coming from the underlying PC form, hence the need to know which form the attack affects.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:42
That probably qualifies for another question. Feel free to ask it
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:56
add a comment |
The second question you link has no rules justifications in the accepted answer (it literally starts off with "I say Yes"). Whether or not the strength drain ability of the shadow affects the beast form, the PC form, or both needs to be addressed before that question can be answered properly. In the case of Wild Shape, you are "magically assuming" the form of the beast (and as such magically applying the better proficiency). What happens to that magically applies proficiency will depend on the answer to which form is affected by the shadow drain.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:24
It also literally says in the accepted answer (to the second linked question on shadow draining) "That's just my thoughts on this"...
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:26
I also said that for the answer to be applied to your question we need to know which form is affected by the Shadow's strength drain (so we can determine which character sheet needs to be recalculated, to determine if the Athletics skill is recalculated)
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:37
The Athletics skill stat in your example isn't coming from the current form...it's magically coming from the underlying PC form, hence the need to know which form the attack affects.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:42
That probably qualifies for another question. Feel free to ask it
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:56
The second question you link has no rules justifications in the accepted answer (it literally starts off with "I say Yes"). Whether or not the strength drain ability of the shadow affects the beast form, the PC form, or both needs to be addressed before that question can be answered properly. In the case of Wild Shape, you are "magically assuming" the form of the beast (and as such magically applying the better proficiency). What happens to that magically applies proficiency will depend on the answer to which form is affected by the shadow drain.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:24
The second question you link has no rules justifications in the accepted answer (it literally starts off with "I say Yes"). Whether or not the strength drain ability of the shadow affects the beast form, the PC form, or both needs to be addressed before that question can be answered properly. In the case of Wild Shape, you are "magically assuming" the form of the beast (and as such magically applying the better proficiency). What happens to that magically applies proficiency will depend on the answer to which form is affected by the shadow drain.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:24
It also literally says in the accepted answer (to the second linked question on shadow draining) "That's just my thoughts on this"...
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:26
It also literally says in the accepted answer (to the second linked question on shadow draining) "That's just my thoughts on this"...
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:26
I also said that for the answer to be applied to your question we need to know which form is affected by the Shadow's strength drain (so we can determine which character sheet needs to be recalculated, to determine if the Athletics skill is recalculated)
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:37
I also said that for the answer to be applied to your question we need to know which form is affected by the Shadow's strength drain (so we can determine which character sheet needs to be recalculated, to determine if the Athletics skill is recalculated)
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:37
The Athletics skill stat in your example isn't coming from the current form...it's magically coming from the underlying PC form, hence the need to know which form the attack affects.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:42
The Athletics skill stat in your example isn't coming from the current form...it's magically coming from the underlying PC form, hence the need to know which form the attack affects.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:42
That probably qualifies for another question. Feel free to ask it
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:56
That probably qualifies for another question. Feel free to ask it
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:56
add a comment |
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
You don't recalculate anything
You simply read the numbers for the bonuses off the beast and PC "character" sheets for skills you and the beast are proficient in and take the higher number.
The relevant rule for your question is:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Importantly it does not say you retain your "proficiency bonus" (which is the relevant game keyword), but instead says you retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies.
i.e. you retain the modifier for skills and saving throws you are proficient in, unless the beast has a better innate proficiency in the skill.
From the Ability Scores section of the Players Handbook we have the following rule:
A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
Thus the bonus referred to in this rule is the number listed under "skills" in the relevant beasts stat block.
Proficient Skills & Saving Throws
Taking the Ape as an example, it has the following skills listed in its stat block:
Skills Athletics +5, Perception +3
If your Athletics skill on your character sheet is +3, then in your wild shaped form you take the +5 from the Ape.
You would also gain the +3 in Perception from the Ape if your characters Perception skill was less than +3.
Conversely, if you are proficient in Acrobatics and your skill bonus is +3 (assuming a 10 in DEX) while the Beasts is +2 (due to its +2 DEX modifier) then you take your characters +3.
The same holds true for the saving throws you are proficient in.
Other Stats
For every other number on the two character sheets you
- take yours if it's related to CHA, INT or WIS
- take the beasts if it's related to CON, DEX or STR
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
3
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
2
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
|
show 5 more comments
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
You don't recalculate anything
You simply read the numbers for the bonuses off the beast and PC "character" sheets for skills you and the beast are proficient in and take the higher number.
The relevant rule for your question is:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Importantly it does not say you retain your "proficiency bonus" (which is the relevant game keyword), but instead says you retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies.
i.e. you retain the modifier for skills and saving throws you are proficient in, unless the beast has a better innate proficiency in the skill.
From the Ability Scores section of the Players Handbook we have the following rule:
A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
Thus the bonus referred to in this rule is the number listed under "skills" in the relevant beasts stat block.
Proficient Skills & Saving Throws
Taking the Ape as an example, it has the following skills listed in its stat block:
Skills Athletics +5, Perception +3
If your Athletics skill on your character sheet is +3, then in your wild shaped form you take the +5 from the Ape.
You would also gain the +3 in Perception from the Ape if your characters Perception skill was less than +3.
Conversely, if you are proficient in Acrobatics and your skill bonus is +3 (assuming a 10 in DEX) while the Beasts is +2 (due to its +2 DEX modifier) then you take your characters +3.
The same holds true for the saving throws you are proficient in.
Other Stats
For every other number on the two character sheets you
- take yours if it's related to CHA, INT or WIS
- take the beasts if it's related to CON, DEX or STR
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
3
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
2
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
You don't recalculate anything
You simply read the numbers for the bonuses off the beast and PC "character" sheets for skills you and the beast are proficient in and take the higher number.
The relevant rule for your question is:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Importantly it does not say you retain your "proficiency bonus" (which is the relevant game keyword), but instead says you retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies.
i.e. you retain the modifier for skills and saving throws you are proficient in, unless the beast has a better innate proficiency in the skill.
From the Ability Scores section of the Players Handbook we have the following rule:
A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
Thus the bonus referred to in this rule is the number listed under "skills" in the relevant beasts stat block.
Proficient Skills & Saving Throws
Taking the Ape as an example, it has the following skills listed in its stat block:
Skills Athletics +5, Perception +3
If your Athletics skill on your character sheet is +3, then in your wild shaped form you take the +5 from the Ape.
You would also gain the +3 in Perception from the Ape if your characters Perception skill was less than +3.
Conversely, if you are proficient in Acrobatics and your skill bonus is +3 (assuming a 10 in DEX) while the Beasts is +2 (due to its +2 DEX modifier) then you take your characters +3.
The same holds true for the saving throws you are proficient in.
Other Stats
For every other number on the two character sheets you
- take yours if it's related to CHA, INT or WIS
- take the beasts if it's related to CON, DEX or STR
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
3
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
2
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
up vote
9
down vote
accepted
You don't recalculate anything
You simply read the numbers for the bonuses off the beast and PC "character" sheets for skills you and the beast are proficient in and take the higher number.
The relevant rule for your question is:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Importantly it does not say you retain your "proficiency bonus" (which is the relevant game keyword), but instead says you retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies.
i.e. you retain the modifier for skills and saving throws you are proficient in, unless the beast has a better innate proficiency in the skill.
From the Ability Scores section of the Players Handbook we have the following rule:
A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
Thus the bonus referred to in this rule is the number listed under "skills" in the relevant beasts stat block.
Proficient Skills & Saving Throws
Taking the Ape as an example, it has the following skills listed in its stat block:
Skills Athletics +5, Perception +3
If your Athletics skill on your character sheet is +3, then in your wild shaped form you take the +5 from the Ape.
You would also gain the +3 in Perception from the Ape if your characters Perception skill was less than +3.
Conversely, if you are proficient in Acrobatics and your skill bonus is +3 (assuming a 10 in DEX) while the Beasts is +2 (due to its +2 DEX modifier) then you take your characters +3.
The same holds true for the saving throws you are proficient in.
Other Stats
For every other number on the two character sheets you
- take yours if it's related to CHA, INT or WIS
- take the beasts if it's related to CON, DEX or STR
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
You don't recalculate anything
You simply read the numbers for the bonuses off the beast and PC "character" sheets for skills you and the beast are proficient in and take the higher number.
The relevant rule for your question is:
Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.
Importantly it does not say you retain your "proficiency bonus" (which is the relevant game keyword), but instead says you retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies.
i.e. you retain the modifier for skills and saving throws you are proficient in, unless the beast has a better innate proficiency in the skill.
From the Ability Scores section of the Players Handbook we have the following rule:
A skill represents a specific aspect of an ability score, and an individual's proficiency in a skill demonstrates a focus on that aspect. (A character's starting skill proficiencies are determined at character creation, and a monster's skill proficiencies appear in the monster's stat block.)
Thus the bonus referred to in this rule is the number listed under "skills" in the relevant beasts stat block.
Proficient Skills & Saving Throws
Taking the Ape as an example, it has the following skills listed in its stat block:
Skills Athletics +5, Perception +3
If your Athletics skill on your character sheet is +3, then in your wild shaped form you take the +5 from the Ape.
You would also gain the +3 in Perception from the Ape if your characters Perception skill was less than +3.
Conversely, if you are proficient in Acrobatics and your skill bonus is +3 (assuming a 10 in DEX) while the Beasts is +2 (due to its +2 DEX modifier) then you take your characters +3.
The same holds true for the saving throws you are proficient in.
Other Stats
For every other number on the two character sheets you
- take yours if it's related to CHA, INT or WIS
- take the beasts if it's related to CON, DEX or STR
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
edited Nov 23 at 10:57
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
answered Nov 22 at 14:41
illustro
5,52821348
5,52821348
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
3
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
2
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
|
show 5 more comments
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
3
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
2
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
So you will have +3 STR, +3 Prof, but only +5 Athletics?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 14:55
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
@BlueMoon93 correct. You don't retain your proficiency bonus, you retain your modifier in skills or saving throws you are proficient in (if it's higher than the beasts), which is calculated based on your PC character stats
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:00
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
But you do retain it?
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:03
3
3
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
@illustro - can you clarify why you interpret "you retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies" as "you keep the numbers you currently have" rather than "you are still proficient, but use the beast's stats"? i.e. proficient in Perception, beast is not, you have +3 WIS +3 PROF, beast has +0 WIS, +2 PROF, before wild shape you have +6 to Perception. Your interpretation = still 6, the other interpretation = +2. This is the difference between proficiency = number or proficiency = "add your current proficiency bonus for checks on this skill".
– Vigil
Nov 22 at 20:26
2
2
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
From the rules on skills: "proficiency in a skill means an individual can add his or her proficiency bonus to ability checks that involve that skill" - so the rules seem to indicate that "proficiency" means "can add current proficiency bonus to skill checks" rather than "the bonus the character currently has to the skill" (which includes attribute bonus). Note that for physical skills where neither beast nor player has proficiency, it's clear that you would add the beast's attribute bonus, not the player's, to any check.
– Vigil
Nov 23 at 10:15
|
show 5 more comments
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The second question you link has no rules justifications in the accepted answer (it literally starts off with "I say Yes"). Whether or not the strength drain ability of the shadow affects the beast form, the PC form, or both needs to be addressed before that question can be answered properly. In the case of Wild Shape, you are "magically assuming" the form of the beast (and as such magically applying the better proficiency). What happens to that magically applies proficiency will depend on the answer to which form is affected by the shadow drain.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:24
It also literally says in the accepted answer (to the second linked question on shadow draining) "That's just my thoughts on this"...
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:26
I also said that for the answer to be applied to your question we need to know which form is affected by the Shadow's strength drain (so we can determine which character sheet needs to be recalculated, to determine if the Athletics skill is recalculated)
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:37
The Athletics skill stat in your example isn't coming from the current form...it's magically coming from the underlying PC form, hence the need to know which form the attack affects.
– illustro
Nov 22 at 15:42
That probably qualifies for another question. Feel free to ask it
– BlueMoon93
Nov 22 at 15:56