Finni's tricky game
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Note:
I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.
mathematics number-theory
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Note:
I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.
mathematics number-theory
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
up vote
4
down vote
favorite
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Note:
I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.
mathematics number-theory
Finni’s game:
Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.
Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.
Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.
Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.
Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.
Which strategy should person B follow? Why?
Note:
I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.
mathematics number-theory
mathematics number-theory
edited 6 hours ago
asked 7 hours ago
Finni
1837
1837
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago
Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago
|
show 2 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
6 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
For x, B should pick:
8
And or y, B should pick:
8 - u
The expected value of u + v is then:
3.7
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
add a comment |
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
2
down vote
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.
After A announces the number u,
B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.
So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then
if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.
Now
as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.
So B should pick
either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)
and A should pick
either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)
after which
the total difference will always be 6.
answered 5 hours ago
Gareth McCaughan♦
60.1k3150232
60.1k3150232
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
6 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
6 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
I think the answer is:
Strategy for B: selects
5
or6
asx
andu+x
asy
Reason:
When difference in talking is always positive so
u
andv
are positive.
To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences betweenn
andx
can be10-1=9
so middle of that is9/2+1=5.5
that nearest values are5
and6
.
If B selects5
or6
asx
; he will minimize the risk.
To minimizev
as B knowsn=u+x
then by sayingu+x
asy
thenv=0
and thenu+v=u
and it will become minimal.
edited 6 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
shA.t
21137
21137
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
6 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! insteadn= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice forx
, asn
might be 10. For example: Ifx
is 5, andn
is 9,u
is 4. Now A has 3 options:x + u
andx - u
for trying to minimizev
, ory = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up withu + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
– Finni
6 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
– Finni
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
– shA.t
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! instead n= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x
, as n
might be 10. For example: If x
is 5, and n
is 9, u
is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u
and x - u
for trying to minimize v
, or y = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.– Finni
6 hours ago
n ≠ u+x
! instead n= u±x
. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x
, as n
might be 10. For example: If x
is 5, and n
is 9, u
is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u
and x - u
for trying to minimize v
, or y = x
, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12
! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.– Finni
6 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
– tom
2 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
I think B picks:
either 3/8 or 4/7.
Why?
Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.
If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).
The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).
If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 6 hours ago
JonMark Perry
17k63281
17k63281
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
5 hours ago
add a comment |
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" meanu
andv
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
– Finni
5 hours ago
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean
u
and v
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable– Finni
5 hours ago
"If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean
u
and v
?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable– Finni
5 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
For x, B should pick:
8
And or y, B should pick:
8 - u
The expected value of u + v is then:
3.7
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
For x, B should pick:
8
And or y, B should pick:
8 - u
The expected value of u + v is then:
3.7
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
For x, B should pick:
8
And or y, B should pick:
8 - u
The expected value of u + v is then:
3.7
For x, B should pick:
8
And or y, B should pick:
8 - u
The expected value of u + v is then:
3.7
answered 2 hours ago
gogators
26514
26514
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....
EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently
B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7
looking at the other possibilities
If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.
Thus the result is
the largest sum of differences is 6
and
the same effect could be had starting with 7
Note that
If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8
and also note
If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.
Thus in conclusion
must start with 4 (or 7)
If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with
3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 2 hours ago
tom
1,9961630
1,9961630
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago
@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago
@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago
Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago
When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago