Finni's tricky game











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4
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Finni’s game:




Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.

Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.

Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.



Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.

Which strategy should person B follow? Why?




Note:




I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.











share|improve this question
























  • Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
    – hexomino
    6 hours ago










  • @shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • @hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
    – gogators
    3 hours ago










  • When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
    – Finni
    3 hours ago















up vote
4
down vote

favorite












Finni’s game:




Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.

Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.

Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.



Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.

Which strategy should person B follow? Why?




Note:




I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.











share|improve this question
























  • Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
    – hexomino
    6 hours ago










  • @shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • @hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
    – gogators
    3 hours ago










  • When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
    – Finni
    3 hours ago













up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











Finni’s game:




Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.

Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.

Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.



Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.

Which strategy should person B follow? Why?




Note:




I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.











share|improve this question















Finni’s game:




Person A thinks of a number (1 to 10). This number is called n.

Person B says a number (1 to 10). This number is called x.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and x. This difference is called u.

Person B says a new number (1 to 10). This number is called y.

Person A tells the absolute difference of n and y. This difference is called v.



Person B's Goal: u + v shall be as small as possible.

Which strategy should person B follow? Why?




Note:




I myself do not know the answer yet, but I am currently working on it.








mathematics number-theory






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 6 hours ago

























asked 7 hours ago









Finni

1837




1837












  • Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
    – hexomino
    6 hours ago










  • @shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • @hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
    – gogators
    3 hours ago










  • When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
    – Finni
    3 hours ago


















  • Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
    – hexomino
    6 hours ago










  • @shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • @hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
    – gogators
    3 hours ago










  • When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
    – Finni
    3 hours ago
















Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago




Will person B try to maximize the sum or do they pick x and y at random.
– hexomino
6 hours ago












@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago




@shA.t I just realized I asked for person As strategy. I intended to ask for person Bs strategy though. I fixed it now.
– Finni
6 hours ago












@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago




@hexomino person B will not pick random but with a certain strategy. The question is, which strategy person B should follow.
– Finni
6 hours ago












Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago




Does A pick at random, or is A trying to maximize u+v?
– gogators
3 hours ago












When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago




When thinking of person Bs strategy, I assume A picks randomly, but it would also be interesting to come up with a strategy for person A. Knowledge of As possible strategies may affect Bs strategy... But in this question I focused on Bs strategy assuming A picks randomly.
– Finni
3 hours ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
2
down vote













First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.



After A announces the number u,




B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.




So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then




if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.




Now




as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.




So B should pick




either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)




and A should pick




either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)




after which




the total difference will always be 6.







share|improve this answer





















  • Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
    – tom
    2 hours ago




















up vote
0
down vote













I think the answer is:




Strategy for B: selects 5 or 6 as x and u+x as y




Reason:




When difference in talking is always positive so u and v are positive.

To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
Maximum differences between n and x can be 10-1=9 so middle of that is 9/2+1=5.5 that nearest values are 5 and 6.

If B selects 5 or 6 as x; he will minimize the risk.

To minimize v as B knows n=u+x then by saying u+x as y then v=0 and then u+v=u and it will become minimal.







share|improve this answer























  • I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
    – Finni
    6 hours ago










  • B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
    – shA.t
    6 hours ago












  • n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
    – Finni
    6 hours ago












  • I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
    – tom
    2 hours ago


















up vote
0
down vote













I think B picks:




either 3/8 or 4/7.




Why?




Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.


If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).


The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).


If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.







share|improve this answer























  • "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
    – Finni
    5 hours ago


















up vote
0
down vote













For x, B should pick:




8




And or y, B should pick:




8 - u




The expected value of u + v is then:




3.7







share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    0
    down vote













    This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....



    EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently




    B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7




    looking at the other possibilities




    If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.




    Thus the result is




    the largest sum of differences is 6




    and




    the same effect could be had starting with 7




    Note that




    If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8




    and also note




    If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.




    Thus in conclusion




    must start with 4 (or 7)




    If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with




    3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.







    share|improve this answer























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      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      2
      down vote













      First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.



      After A announces the number u,




      B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.




      So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then




      if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.




      Now




      as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.




      So B should pick




      either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)




      and A should pick




      either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)




      after which




      the total difference will always be 6.







      share|improve this answer





















      • Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
        – tom
        2 hours ago

















      up vote
      2
      down vote













      First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.



      After A announces the number u,




      B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.




      So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then




      if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.




      Now




      as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.




      So B should pick




      either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)




      and A should pick




      either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)




      after which




      the total difference will always be 6.







      share|improve this answer





















      • Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
        – tom
        2 hours ago















      up vote
      2
      down vote










      up vote
      2
      down vote









      First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.



      After A announces the number u,




      B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.




      So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then




      if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.




      Now




      as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.




      So B should pick




      either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)




      and A should pick




      either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)




      after which




      the total difference will always be 6.







      share|improve this answer












      First, a remark: The question may not have a well-defined answer: is B trying to make u+v as small as possible in the worst case where A gets lucky, or on average in some sense, or what? I'll assume that each player is trying to optimize their worst case.



      After A announces the number u,




      B knows that A's secret number n must be either x+u or x-u. (Perhaps only one of these is possible, e.g. if x=1.) B will then pick y to make max(|y-(x+u)|, |y-(x-u)|) as small as possible. What value of y does this? Always x itself, when both values are actually possible. If not, then B knows the value of n and will pick it.




      So, let's suppose B picks x with 1 <= x <= 5. (The other choices are equivalent by symmetry.) Then




      if A responds with something =x, in which case B now knows what n is and can hit it on the nose; worst case is where n=10 and the total difference is 10-x.




      Now




      as we increase x, one of these gets worse and the other gets better. The best worst case will be where they are equal: 2(x-1) = 10-x or x=4. Then the worst possible total difference is 6.




      So B should pick




      either 4 or 7 (or some random choice between them)




      and A should pick




      either 1 or 10 (better pick at random, else B can do better!)




      after which




      the total difference will always be 6.








      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 5 hours ago









      Gareth McCaughan

      60.1k3150232




      60.1k3150232












      • Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
        – tom
        2 hours ago




















      • Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
        – tom
        2 hours ago


















      Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
      – tom
      2 hours ago






      Ah ok- I realize I have just restated your answer, which I think is correct.... but I was confused by one of your statements where you mentioned "random choice between them", which I read the wrong way... I read it as allowing an intermediate value between these two options, but now I see that reading is incorrect... -- so now I realize that my answer is just yours expressed differently.... so you get my plus one....
      – tom
      2 hours ago












      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I think the answer is:




      Strategy for B: selects 5 or 6 as x and u+x as y




      Reason:




      When difference in talking is always positive so u and v are positive.

      To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
      Maximum differences between n and x can be 10-1=9 so middle of that is 9/2+1=5.5 that nearest values are 5 and 6.

      If B selects 5 or 6 as x; he will minimize the risk.

      To minimize v as B knows n=u+x then by saying u+x as y then v=0 and then u+v=u and it will become minimal.







      share|improve this answer























      • I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
        – shA.t
        6 hours ago












      • n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago












      • I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
        – tom
        2 hours ago















      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I think the answer is:




      Strategy for B: selects 5 or 6 as x and u+x as y




      Reason:




      When difference in talking is always positive so u and v are positive.

      To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
      Maximum differences between n and x can be 10-1=9 so middle of that is 9/2+1=5.5 that nearest values are 5 and 6.

      If B selects 5 or 6 as x; he will minimize the risk.

      To minimize v as B knows n=u+x then by saying u+x as y then v=0 and then u+v=u and it will become minimal.







      share|improve this answer























      • I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
        – shA.t
        6 hours ago












      • n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago












      • I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
        – tom
        2 hours ago













      up vote
      0
      down vote










      up vote
      0
      down vote









      I think the answer is:




      Strategy for B: selects 5 or 6 as x and u+x as y




      Reason:




      When difference in talking is always positive so u and v are positive.

      To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
      Maximum differences between n and x can be 10-1=9 so middle of that is 9/2+1=5.5 that nearest values are 5 and 6.

      If B selects 5 or 6 as x; he will minimize the risk.

      To minimize v as B knows n=u+x then by saying u+x as y then v=0 and then u+v=u and it will become minimal.







      share|improve this answer














      I think the answer is:




      Strategy for B: selects 5 or 6 as x and u+x as y




      Reason:




      When difference in talking is always positive so u and v are positive.

      To reduce value of an add operation of two positive number you should minimize both.
      Maximum differences between n and x can be 10-1=9 so middle of that is 9/2+1=5.5 that nearest values are 5 and 6.

      If B selects 5 or 6 as x; he will minimize the risk.

      To minimize v as B knows n=u+x then by saying u+x as y then v=0 and then u+v=u and it will become minimal.








      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 6 hours ago

























      answered 6 hours ago









      shA.t

      21137




      21137












      • I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
        – shA.t
        6 hours ago












      • n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago












      • I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
        – tom
        2 hours ago


















      • I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
        – Finni
        6 hours ago










      • B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
        – shA.t
        6 hours ago












      • n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
        – Finni
        6 hours ago












      • I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
        – tom
        2 hours ago
















      I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
      – Finni
      6 hours ago




      I guess this is right for person As strategy. Unfortunately I asked for person As strategy, but I meant to ask for person Bs strategy. When thinking of person Bs strategy, the optimal strategy for person A might also be affected.
      – Finni
      6 hours ago












      Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
      – Finni
      6 hours ago




      Why do you think this is the best strategy for person B? Keep in mind that when x is 5 and u is 2, n can be both 3 or 7! Always choosing u+x as y creates a 50/50 scenario: either v = 0, or v = 2*u. Furthermore, what should B pick as x?
      – Finni
      6 hours ago












      B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
      – shA.t
      6 hours ago






      B will selects 5 or 6 as x ;).
      – shA.t
      6 hours ago














      n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
      – Finni
      6 hours ago






      n ≠ u+x! instead n= u±x. When keeping this in mind, 5 or 6 might not be the best choice for x, as n might be 10. For example: If x is 5, and n is 9, u is 4. Now A has 3 options: x + u and x - u for trying to minimize v, or y = x, for choosing the safe option. In the worst case, A ends up with u + v = 12! There are definitely strategies with a better worst case.
      – Finni
      6 hours ago














      I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
      – tom
      2 hours ago




      I think this is the correct answer for one guess, but I think for more than one guess it is not correct, because you don't learn anything with your first guess that could help with the second guess...
      – tom
      2 hours ago










      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I think B picks:




      either 3/8 or 4/7.




      Why?




      Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.


      If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).


      The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).


      If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.







      share|improve this answer























      • "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
        – Finni
        5 hours ago















      up vote
      0
      down vote













      I think B picks:




      either 3/8 or 4/7.




      Why?




      Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.


      If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).


      The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).


      If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.







      share|improve this answer























      • "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
        – Finni
        5 hours ago













      up vote
      0
      down vote










      up vote
      0
      down vote









      I think B picks:




      either 3/8 or 4/7.




      Why?




      Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.


      If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).


      The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).


      If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.







      share|improve this answer














      I think B picks:




      either 3/8 or 4/7.




      Why?




      Let's say B picks x=4, (the argument is similar for x=7) then if A had picked n=1,2,3,4,5,6,7 u=3,2,1,0,1,2,3pts respectively. B now knows the range is n=1,...,7, and on their next guess should pick either y=3 or y=5, which at worst will be at most 4pts, a total of 7pts. If not, say A chose from 8,9,10, B already knows the result, for a maximum total of 6pts (from n=10). Result: $u+vle7$.


      If B picks x=3, the worst case is 7pts from A having chosen n=10 (next guess from B is 0pts).


      The other two cases: If B picks x=5, worst case is 9pts (n=9 incurs 4pts, B goes for y=6 but n=1 gives another 5pts).


      If B picks x=1 or x=2, worst case is at least 8pts.








      share|improve this answer














      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer








      edited 5 hours ago

























      answered 6 hours ago









      JonMark Perry

      17k63281




      17k63281












      • "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
        – Finni
        5 hours ago


















      • "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
        – Finni
        5 hours ago
















      "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
      – Finni
      5 hours ago




      "If 4 scores 1,2,3pts, the next guess of 3 will be at most 4 out for a total of 7pts." If who scores (does "score" mean u and v?) on what? Your answer sounds plausible, but I don't quite get which of your points and numbers represent which number... Could you maybe use the letters I used in the question? I think this will make your answer more understandable
      – Finni
      5 hours ago










      up vote
      0
      down vote













      For x, B should pick:




      8




      And or y, B should pick:




      8 - u




      The expected value of u + v is then:




      3.7







      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        0
        down vote













        For x, B should pick:




        8




        And or y, B should pick:




        8 - u




        The expected value of u + v is then:




        3.7







        share|improve this answer























          up vote
          0
          down vote










          up vote
          0
          down vote









          For x, B should pick:




          8




          And or y, B should pick:




          8 - u




          The expected value of u + v is then:




          3.7







          share|improve this answer












          For x, B should pick:




          8




          And or y, B should pick:




          8 - u




          The expected value of u + v is then:




          3.7








          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 2 hours ago









          gogators

          26514




          26514






















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....



              EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently




              B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7




              looking at the other possibilities




              If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.




              Thus the result is




              the largest sum of differences is 6




              and




              the same effect could be had starting with 7




              Note that




              If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8




              and also note




              If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.




              Thus in conclusion




              must start with 4 (or 7)




              If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with




              3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.







              share|improve this answer



























                up vote
                0
                down vote













                This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....



                EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently




                B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7




                looking at the other possibilities




                If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.




                Thus the result is




                the largest sum of differences is 6




                and




                the same effect could be had starting with 7




                Note that




                If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8




                and also note




                If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.




                Thus in conclusion




                must start with 4 (or 7)




                If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with




                3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.







                share|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....



                  EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently




                  B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7




                  looking at the other possibilities




                  If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.




                  Thus the result is




                  the largest sum of differences is 6




                  and




                  the same effect could be had starting with 7




                  Note that




                  If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8




                  and also note




                  If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.




                  Thus in conclusion




                  must start with 4 (or 7)




                  If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with




                  3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.







                  share|improve this answer














                  This is probably similar to other answers, but I don't think it is expressed quite this way....



                  EDIT - ok so reading more closely it is the same as Gareth McCaughan's answer, but expressed a little bit differently




                  B should start with 4 - then if the difference is 0,1,2 or 3 B should repeat 4 and then the total will be either 0,2,4 or 6 and the unknown number was between 1 and 7




                  looking at the other possibilities




                  If the first difference is 4,5 or 6 then B knows the unknown number was 8,9 or 10 and so for B's second number B can choose 8, 9 or 10 and then the total of the two differences will be 4,5,6.




                  Thus the result is




                  the largest sum of differences is 6




                  and




                  the same effect could be had starting with 7




                  Note that




                  If B starts with 5 (or 6) then a difference of 4 initially may mean the unknown number is 1 or 9 and so B will be unsure how to minimize the total and will need to stick with 5 and get a total difference of 8




                  and also note




                  If the first guess is less than 4 (or more than 7) then the first difference could be greater than 6 and so the total of the differences could be greater than 6.




                  Thus in conclusion




                  must start with 4 (or 7)




                  If there were more guesses then it would be better to start with




                  3 - if there were 3 guesses. and probably 2 if there were 4 or more guesses.








                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited 2 hours ago

























                  answered 2 hours ago









                  tom

                  1,9961630




                  1,9961630






























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