How do pattern and overflight altitudes work for airports underneath Class C airspace?











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Lowell City Airport (24C) has an elevation of 700 feet MSL. So normally, the pattern altitude is going to be 1,700 feet, and the altitude for overflying the pattern is going to be 2,200 feet.



However, 24C Lowell is located underneath Class C airspace which starts at 2,000 MSL, so you can't fly at 2,200 without talking to Grand Rapids.



What should I do if I'd like to fly over the field? I can think of a few options:




  1. Maybe 24C Lowell has a non-standard pattern altitude, like 1,400, which would allow me to overfly at 1,900. (How could I find this out using official sources?)

  2. Split the difference between pattern altitude and the Class C. If the pattern altitude is 1,700 and the Class C starts at 2,000, maybe I can overfly at 1,900.

  3. Establish communications with Grand Rapids Approach, then go ahead and overfly at 2,200 while monitoring both Approach and CTAF at the same time.

  4. Just avoid overflying the pattern, and fly around it instead.


When in doubt, I'm going with option 4. But what should I know about the other options?



I do have some particular questions about option 3. If I do choose to contact Grand Rapids Approach and climb to 2,200 to overfly, then I'll have to monitor both Approach and CTAF at the same time, right? Can most small airplanes even do that?










share|improve this question
























  • I may be wrong, but you seem to be asking how to overfly the field without entering class C and/or talking to ATC. If that's correct, you might like to say explicitly what limitations you have. Otherwise you're likely to get a bunch of answers saying "just talk to ATC".
    – Pondlife
    7 hours ago










  • Why do you want to overfly the field in the first place? Determining the winds/pattern? Tourism? Just passing through?
    – Stephen Sprunk
    4 hours ago










  • @Pondlife If there aren't any downsides to talking to ATC, I'll definitely do that, but I'm not quite sure how that would work; I edited my question to ask about that. Plus, if Lowell did have a non-standard pattern altitude which I could overfly at 1,900, that would mean that talking to ATC is totally unnecessary (...or would it?)
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago










  • @Stephen Probably either to look at the wind sock, or to enter the pattern from the wrong side.
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Lowell City Airport (24C) has an elevation of 700 feet MSL. So normally, the pattern altitude is going to be 1,700 feet, and the altitude for overflying the pattern is going to be 2,200 feet.



However, 24C Lowell is located underneath Class C airspace which starts at 2,000 MSL, so you can't fly at 2,200 without talking to Grand Rapids.



What should I do if I'd like to fly over the field? I can think of a few options:




  1. Maybe 24C Lowell has a non-standard pattern altitude, like 1,400, which would allow me to overfly at 1,900. (How could I find this out using official sources?)

  2. Split the difference between pattern altitude and the Class C. If the pattern altitude is 1,700 and the Class C starts at 2,000, maybe I can overfly at 1,900.

  3. Establish communications with Grand Rapids Approach, then go ahead and overfly at 2,200 while monitoring both Approach and CTAF at the same time.

  4. Just avoid overflying the pattern, and fly around it instead.


When in doubt, I'm going with option 4. But what should I know about the other options?



I do have some particular questions about option 3. If I do choose to contact Grand Rapids Approach and climb to 2,200 to overfly, then I'll have to monitor both Approach and CTAF at the same time, right? Can most small airplanes even do that?










share|improve this question
























  • I may be wrong, but you seem to be asking how to overfly the field without entering class C and/or talking to ATC. If that's correct, you might like to say explicitly what limitations you have. Otherwise you're likely to get a bunch of answers saying "just talk to ATC".
    – Pondlife
    7 hours ago










  • Why do you want to overfly the field in the first place? Determining the winds/pattern? Tourism? Just passing through?
    – Stephen Sprunk
    4 hours ago










  • @Pondlife If there aren't any downsides to talking to ATC, I'll definitely do that, but I'm not quite sure how that would work; I edited my question to ask about that. Plus, if Lowell did have a non-standard pattern altitude which I could overfly at 1,900, that would mean that talking to ATC is totally unnecessary (...or would it?)
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago










  • @Stephen Probably either to look at the wind sock, or to enter the pattern from the wrong side.
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Lowell City Airport (24C) has an elevation of 700 feet MSL. So normally, the pattern altitude is going to be 1,700 feet, and the altitude for overflying the pattern is going to be 2,200 feet.



However, 24C Lowell is located underneath Class C airspace which starts at 2,000 MSL, so you can't fly at 2,200 without talking to Grand Rapids.



What should I do if I'd like to fly over the field? I can think of a few options:




  1. Maybe 24C Lowell has a non-standard pattern altitude, like 1,400, which would allow me to overfly at 1,900. (How could I find this out using official sources?)

  2. Split the difference between pattern altitude and the Class C. If the pattern altitude is 1,700 and the Class C starts at 2,000, maybe I can overfly at 1,900.

  3. Establish communications with Grand Rapids Approach, then go ahead and overfly at 2,200 while monitoring both Approach and CTAF at the same time.

  4. Just avoid overflying the pattern, and fly around it instead.


When in doubt, I'm going with option 4. But what should I know about the other options?



I do have some particular questions about option 3. If I do choose to contact Grand Rapids Approach and climb to 2,200 to overfly, then I'll have to monitor both Approach and CTAF at the same time, right? Can most small airplanes even do that?










share|improve this question















Lowell City Airport (24C) has an elevation of 700 feet MSL. So normally, the pattern altitude is going to be 1,700 feet, and the altitude for overflying the pattern is going to be 2,200 feet.



However, 24C Lowell is located underneath Class C airspace which starts at 2,000 MSL, so you can't fly at 2,200 without talking to Grand Rapids.



What should I do if I'd like to fly over the field? I can think of a few options:




  1. Maybe 24C Lowell has a non-standard pattern altitude, like 1,400, which would allow me to overfly at 1,900. (How could I find this out using official sources?)

  2. Split the difference between pattern altitude and the Class C. If the pattern altitude is 1,700 and the Class C starts at 2,000, maybe I can overfly at 1,900.

  3. Establish communications with Grand Rapids Approach, then go ahead and overfly at 2,200 while monitoring both Approach and CTAF at the same time.

  4. Just avoid overflying the pattern, and fly around it instead.


When in doubt, I'm going with option 4. But what should I know about the other options?



I do have some particular questions about option 3. If I do choose to contact Grand Rapids Approach and climb to 2,200 to overfly, then I'll have to monitor both Approach and CTAF at the same time, right? Can most small airplanes even do that?







altitude traffic-pattern class-c-airspace






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share|improve this question













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share|improve this question








edited 2 hours ago

























asked 8 hours ago









Tanner Swett

1,5721726




1,5721726












  • I may be wrong, but you seem to be asking how to overfly the field without entering class C and/or talking to ATC. If that's correct, you might like to say explicitly what limitations you have. Otherwise you're likely to get a bunch of answers saying "just talk to ATC".
    – Pondlife
    7 hours ago










  • Why do you want to overfly the field in the first place? Determining the winds/pattern? Tourism? Just passing through?
    – Stephen Sprunk
    4 hours ago










  • @Pondlife If there aren't any downsides to talking to ATC, I'll definitely do that, but I'm not quite sure how that would work; I edited my question to ask about that. Plus, if Lowell did have a non-standard pattern altitude which I could overfly at 1,900, that would mean that talking to ATC is totally unnecessary (...or would it?)
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago










  • @Stephen Probably either to look at the wind sock, or to enter the pattern from the wrong side.
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago


















  • I may be wrong, but you seem to be asking how to overfly the field without entering class C and/or talking to ATC. If that's correct, you might like to say explicitly what limitations you have. Otherwise you're likely to get a bunch of answers saying "just talk to ATC".
    – Pondlife
    7 hours ago










  • Why do you want to overfly the field in the first place? Determining the winds/pattern? Tourism? Just passing through?
    – Stephen Sprunk
    4 hours ago










  • @Pondlife If there aren't any downsides to talking to ATC, I'll definitely do that, but I'm not quite sure how that would work; I edited my question to ask about that. Plus, if Lowell did have a non-standard pattern altitude which I could overfly at 1,900, that would mean that talking to ATC is totally unnecessary (...or would it?)
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago










  • @Stephen Probably either to look at the wind sock, or to enter the pattern from the wrong side.
    – Tanner Swett
    2 hours ago
















I may be wrong, but you seem to be asking how to overfly the field without entering class C and/or talking to ATC. If that's correct, you might like to say explicitly what limitations you have. Otherwise you're likely to get a bunch of answers saying "just talk to ATC".
– Pondlife
7 hours ago




I may be wrong, but you seem to be asking how to overfly the field without entering class C and/or talking to ATC. If that's correct, you might like to say explicitly what limitations you have. Otherwise you're likely to get a bunch of answers saying "just talk to ATC".
– Pondlife
7 hours ago












Why do you want to overfly the field in the first place? Determining the winds/pattern? Tourism? Just passing through?
– Stephen Sprunk
4 hours ago




Why do you want to overfly the field in the first place? Determining the winds/pattern? Tourism? Just passing through?
– Stephen Sprunk
4 hours ago












@Pondlife If there aren't any downsides to talking to ATC, I'll definitely do that, but I'm not quite sure how that would work; I edited my question to ask about that. Plus, if Lowell did have a non-standard pattern altitude which I could overfly at 1,900, that would mean that talking to ATC is totally unnecessary (...or would it?)
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago




@Pondlife If there aren't any downsides to talking to ATC, I'll definitely do that, but I'm not quite sure how that would work; I edited my question to ask about that. Plus, if Lowell did have a non-standard pattern altitude which I could overfly at 1,900, that would mean that talking to ATC is totally unnecessary (...or would it?)
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago












@Stephen Probably either to look at the wind sock, or to enter the pattern from the wrong side.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago




@Stephen Probably either to look at the wind sock, or to enter the pattern from the wrong side.
– Tanner Swett
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
4
down vote













Just talk to the controllers. We live under a Class B with several underlying Class C or D fields. They'll talk to you. They'd rather know what you're planning to do than not, keeps everyone safer.






share|improve this answer




























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    From the standpoint of the GR Class C airspace, your only choices are to go around Lowell or call GR Terminal for clearance into Class C to go over it, if you want to be legal overflight-wise.



    Me, I generally avoid terminal airspace when at all possible when piddling around VFR, so it's a no brainer to just deke around it.






    share|improve this answer























    • "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
      – Tanner Swett
      6 hours ago






    • 1




      Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
      – CrossRoads
      5 hours ago










    • I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
      – John K
      4 hours ago


















    up vote
    0
    down vote














    1. A non-standard pattern altitude would be in the Chart Supplement (formerly A/FD). Nothing is listed, so it's the expected 1700ft.


    2. Overflight is 500ft above pattern altitude to maintain proper separation. Any closer than this (aside from formation flight) is unsafe and could get you violated. Don't do that.


    3. There's no need to monitor CTAF while you're talking to ATC. They will tell you when to switch over. Have that freq preset on your other radio, though, since you'll probably be a lot closer than you're used to for making your first call and won't want to waste time fumbling with charts and knobs.


    4. Going around doesn't seem to apply if your intent is to land there.



    Overall, if you're operating in an area with Approach Control, use it! That isn't limited to the primary airport or even within class B/C airspace; they handle everything within a certain distance (at least 20nm in this case) from the primary, and they'd generally rather know what all those blips on their radar are going to do next than be surprised by sudden conflicts.



    Rather than monitoring CTAF, I would monitor GRR's ASOS; it's only 9nm away, which should be close enough to decide Rwy 12 vs 30 at 24C. Once ATC does switch you to CTAF, just make your first call and if folks are using the other, they should pipe up quickly--and loudly!



    If you're coming from the northeast and landing 30, I'd forget the pattern, turn south early and then do a long straght-in approach. If coming from the southwest and landing 12, turn north early for the same reason. If you really want to see the windsock or field condition, or you just don't like straight-in approaches, or there's traffic in the pattern, you can enter on upwind instead. Note that upwind is on the opposite side from downwind, not overflying the runway as some books incorrectly show it.



    Many airports under shelves like this will have a right pattern on one runway specifically to allow entering 45 to downwind from the "outside" both ways. Unfortunately, that's not the case at 24C.






    share|improve this answer





















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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes








      up vote
      4
      down vote













      Just talk to the controllers. We live under a Class B with several underlying Class C or D fields. They'll talk to you. They'd rather know what you're planning to do than not, keeps everyone safer.






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        4
        down vote













        Just talk to the controllers. We live under a Class B with several underlying Class C or D fields. They'll talk to you. They'd rather know what you're planning to do than not, keeps everyone safer.






        share|improve this answer























          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          Just talk to the controllers. We live under a Class B with several underlying Class C or D fields. They'll talk to you. They'd rather know what you're planning to do than not, keeps everyone safer.






          share|improve this answer












          Just talk to the controllers. We live under a Class B with several underlying Class C or D fields. They'll talk to you. They'd rather know what you're planning to do than not, keeps everyone safer.







          share|improve this answer












          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer










          answered 7 hours ago









          CrossRoads

          3,8341417




          3,8341417






















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              From the standpoint of the GR Class C airspace, your only choices are to go around Lowell or call GR Terminal for clearance into Class C to go over it, if you want to be legal overflight-wise.



              Me, I generally avoid terminal airspace when at all possible when piddling around VFR, so it's a no brainer to just deke around it.






              share|improve this answer























              • "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
                – Tanner Swett
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
                – CrossRoads
                5 hours ago










              • I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
                – John K
                4 hours ago















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              From the standpoint of the GR Class C airspace, your only choices are to go around Lowell or call GR Terminal for clearance into Class C to go over it, if you want to be legal overflight-wise.



              Me, I generally avoid terminal airspace when at all possible when piddling around VFR, so it's a no brainer to just deke around it.






              share|improve this answer























              • "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
                – Tanner Swett
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
                – CrossRoads
                5 hours ago










              • I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
                – John K
                4 hours ago













              up vote
              2
              down vote










              up vote
              2
              down vote









              From the standpoint of the GR Class C airspace, your only choices are to go around Lowell or call GR Terminal for clearance into Class C to go over it, if you want to be legal overflight-wise.



              Me, I generally avoid terminal airspace when at all possible when piddling around VFR, so it's a no brainer to just deke around it.






              share|improve this answer














              From the standpoint of the GR Class C airspace, your only choices are to go around Lowell or call GR Terminal for clearance into Class C to go over it, if you want to be legal overflight-wise.



              Me, I generally avoid terminal airspace when at all possible when piddling around VFR, so it's a no brainer to just deke around it.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited 6 hours ago









              Tanner Swett

              1,5721726




              1,5721726










              answered 7 hours ago









              John K

              13k11440




              13k11440












              • "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
                – Tanner Swett
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
                – CrossRoads
                5 hours ago










              • I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
                – John K
                4 hours ago


















              • "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
                – Tanner Swett
                6 hours ago






              • 1




                Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
                – CrossRoads
                5 hours ago










              • I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
                – John K
                4 hours ago
















              "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
              – Tanner Swett
              6 hours ago




              "I think you're talking about Lowell aren't you?" Yep, my mistake. Thanks for catching that! I've edited the question.
              – Tanner Swett
              6 hours ago




              1




              1




              Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
              – CrossRoads
              5 hours ago




              Got your ADS-B Out installed yet? Make it easier for all those folks you're not talking to "see" you.
              – CrossRoads
              5 hours ago












              I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
              – John K
              4 hours ago




              I'm in Canada. Not being mandated here.
              – John K
              4 hours ago










              up vote
              0
              down vote














              1. A non-standard pattern altitude would be in the Chart Supplement (formerly A/FD). Nothing is listed, so it's the expected 1700ft.


              2. Overflight is 500ft above pattern altitude to maintain proper separation. Any closer than this (aside from formation flight) is unsafe and could get you violated. Don't do that.


              3. There's no need to monitor CTAF while you're talking to ATC. They will tell you when to switch over. Have that freq preset on your other radio, though, since you'll probably be a lot closer than you're used to for making your first call and won't want to waste time fumbling with charts and knobs.


              4. Going around doesn't seem to apply if your intent is to land there.



              Overall, if you're operating in an area with Approach Control, use it! That isn't limited to the primary airport or even within class B/C airspace; they handle everything within a certain distance (at least 20nm in this case) from the primary, and they'd generally rather know what all those blips on their radar are going to do next than be surprised by sudden conflicts.



              Rather than monitoring CTAF, I would monitor GRR's ASOS; it's only 9nm away, which should be close enough to decide Rwy 12 vs 30 at 24C. Once ATC does switch you to CTAF, just make your first call and if folks are using the other, they should pipe up quickly--and loudly!



              If you're coming from the northeast and landing 30, I'd forget the pattern, turn south early and then do a long straght-in approach. If coming from the southwest and landing 12, turn north early for the same reason. If you really want to see the windsock or field condition, or you just don't like straight-in approaches, or there's traffic in the pattern, you can enter on upwind instead. Note that upwind is on the opposite side from downwind, not overflying the runway as some books incorrectly show it.



              Many airports under shelves like this will have a right pattern on one runway specifically to allow entering 45 to downwind from the "outside" both ways. Unfortunately, that's not the case at 24C.






              share|improve this answer

























                up vote
                0
                down vote














                1. A non-standard pattern altitude would be in the Chart Supplement (formerly A/FD). Nothing is listed, so it's the expected 1700ft.


                2. Overflight is 500ft above pattern altitude to maintain proper separation. Any closer than this (aside from formation flight) is unsafe and could get you violated. Don't do that.


                3. There's no need to monitor CTAF while you're talking to ATC. They will tell you when to switch over. Have that freq preset on your other radio, though, since you'll probably be a lot closer than you're used to for making your first call and won't want to waste time fumbling with charts and knobs.


                4. Going around doesn't seem to apply if your intent is to land there.



                Overall, if you're operating in an area with Approach Control, use it! That isn't limited to the primary airport or even within class B/C airspace; they handle everything within a certain distance (at least 20nm in this case) from the primary, and they'd generally rather know what all those blips on their radar are going to do next than be surprised by sudden conflicts.



                Rather than monitoring CTAF, I would monitor GRR's ASOS; it's only 9nm away, which should be close enough to decide Rwy 12 vs 30 at 24C. Once ATC does switch you to CTAF, just make your first call and if folks are using the other, they should pipe up quickly--and loudly!



                If you're coming from the northeast and landing 30, I'd forget the pattern, turn south early and then do a long straght-in approach. If coming from the southwest and landing 12, turn north early for the same reason. If you really want to see the windsock or field condition, or you just don't like straight-in approaches, or there's traffic in the pattern, you can enter on upwind instead. Note that upwind is on the opposite side from downwind, not overflying the runway as some books incorrectly show it.



                Many airports under shelves like this will have a right pattern on one runway specifically to allow entering 45 to downwind from the "outside" both ways. Unfortunately, that's not the case at 24C.






                share|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  1. A non-standard pattern altitude would be in the Chart Supplement (formerly A/FD). Nothing is listed, so it's the expected 1700ft.


                  2. Overflight is 500ft above pattern altitude to maintain proper separation. Any closer than this (aside from formation flight) is unsafe and could get you violated. Don't do that.


                  3. There's no need to monitor CTAF while you're talking to ATC. They will tell you when to switch over. Have that freq preset on your other radio, though, since you'll probably be a lot closer than you're used to for making your first call and won't want to waste time fumbling with charts and knobs.


                  4. Going around doesn't seem to apply if your intent is to land there.



                  Overall, if you're operating in an area with Approach Control, use it! That isn't limited to the primary airport or even within class B/C airspace; they handle everything within a certain distance (at least 20nm in this case) from the primary, and they'd generally rather know what all those blips on their radar are going to do next than be surprised by sudden conflicts.



                  Rather than monitoring CTAF, I would monitor GRR's ASOS; it's only 9nm away, which should be close enough to decide Rwy 12 vs 30 at 24C. Once ATC does switch you to CTAF, just make your first call and if folks are using the other, they should pipe up quickly--and loudly!



                  If you're coming from the northeast and landing 30, I'd forget the pattern, turn south early and then do a long straght-in approach. If coming from the southwest and landing 12, turn north early for the same reason. If you really want to see the windsock or field condition, or you just don't like straight-in approaches, or there's traffic in the pattern, you can enter on upwind instead. Note that upwind is on the opposite side from downwind, not overflying the runway as some books incorrectly show it.



                  Many airports under shelves like this will have a right pattern on one runway specifically to allow entering 45 to downwind from the "outside" both ways. Unfortunately, that's not the case at 24C.






                  share|improve this answer













                  1. A non-standard pattern altitude would be in the Chart Supplement (formerly A/FD). Nothing is listed, so it's the expected 1700ft.


                  2. Overflight is 500ft above pattern altitude to maintain proper separation. Any closer than this (aside from formation flight) is unsafe and could get you violated. Don't do that.


                  3. There's no need to monitor CTAF while you're talking to ATC. They will tell you when to switch over. Have that freq preset on your other radio, though, since you'll probably be a lot closer than you're used to for making your first call and won't want to waste time fumbling with charts and knobs.


                  4. Going around doesn't seem to apply if your intent is to land there.



                  Overall, if you're operating in an area with Approach Control, use it! That isn't limited to the primary airport or even within class B/C airspace; they handle everything within a certain distance (at least 20nm in this case) from the primary, and they'd generally rather know what all those blips on their radar are going to do next than be surprised by sudden conflicts.



                  Rather than monitoring CTAF, I would monitor GRR's ASOS; it's only 9nm away, which should be close enough to decide Rwy 12 vs 30 at 24C. Once ATC does switch you to CTAF, just make your first call and if folks are using the other, they should pipe up quickly--and loudly!



                  If you're coming from the northeast and landing 30, I'd forget the pattern, turn south early and then do a long straght-in approach. If coming from the southwest and landing 12, turn north early for the same reason. If you really want to see the windsock or field condition, or you just don't like straight-in approaches, or there's traffic in the pattern, you can enter on upwind instead. Note that upwind is on the opposite side from downwind, not overflying the runway as some books incorrectly show it.



                  Many airports under shelves like this will have a right pattern on one runway specifically to allow entering 45 to downwind from the "outside" both ways. Unfortunately, that's not the case at 24C.







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                  answered 40 mins ago









                  Stephen Sprunk

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