When throwing a melee weapon without the thrown property is the proficiency bonus still added to the attack?
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The rules for improvised weapons state that you can throw a melee weapon even if it does not have the thrown property for 1d4 damage:
If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage.
It is also stated that using an improvised weapon when it is similar to an existing weapon allows one to add their proficiency bonus to the attack:
At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus,
Does this mean that when throwing a weapon this way, if a character is proficient with the weapon being thrown they get to add their proficiency bonus to this attack?
(The character does not have the Tavern Brawler feat which would make this trivial. This question asked in regards to a discussion on this homebrew question)
dnd-5e proficiency improvised-weaponry throwing-things
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The rules for improvised weapons state that you can throw a melee weapon even if it does not have the thrown property for 1d4 damage:
If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage.
It is also stated that using an improvised weapon when it is similar to an existing weapon allows one to add their proficiency bonus to the attack:
At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus,
Does this mean that when throwing a weapon this way, if a character is proficient with the weapon being thrown they get to add their proficiency bonus to this attack?
(The character does not have the Tavern Brawler feat which would make this trivial. This question asked in regards to a discussion on this homebrew question)
dnd-5e proficiency improvised-weaponry throwing-things
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
up vote
13
down vote
favorite
The rules for improvised weapons state that you can throw a melee weapon even if it does not have the thrown property for 1d4 damage:
If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage.
It is also stated that using an improvised weapon when it is similar to an existing weapon allows one to add their proficiency bonus to the attack:
At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus,
Does this mean that when throwing a weapon this way, if a character is proficient with the weapon being thrown they get to add their proficiency bonus to this attack?
(The character does not have the Tavern Brawler feat which would make this trivial. This question asked in regards to a discussion on this homebrew question)
dnd-5e proficiency improvised-weaponry throwing-things
The rules for improvised weapons state that you can throw a melee weapon even if it does not have the thrown property for 1d4 damage:
If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage.
It is also stated that using an improvised weapon when it is similar to an existing weapon allows one to add their proficiency bonus to the attack:
At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus,
Does this mean that when throwing a weapon this way, if a character is proficient with the weapon being thrown they get to add their proficiency bonus to this attack?
(The character does not have the Tavern Brawler feat which would make this trivial. This question asked in regards to a discussion on this homebrew question)
dnd-5e proficiency improvised-weaponry throwing-things
dnd-5e proficiency improvised-weaponry throwing-things
asked 21 hours ago
Sdjz
10.4k34993
10.4k34993
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Only if you are ruled as using an improvised version of a proficient weapon
The relevant piece of information, PHB p. 147:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with
whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object
you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg,
a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and
can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At
the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a
similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the
DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character
uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon
that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An
improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long
range of 60 feet.
Note the italicized line. It's not that every improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage when thrown, only those that "bears no resemblance to a weapon". And since your proficiency is based on the fact that you "can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus", you cannot gain both benefits with the same weapon.
With this information, you effectively have two choices:
Have your DM treat the original weapon as a second, different weapon that has the Thrown feature. Example: treating a Halfling's War Hammer (no Thrown) as a Goliath's Light Hammer (with Thrown).
Make your attack as using an Improvised Weapon, dealing 1d4 damage and using the default thrown option of 20/60 range, and only adding proficiency if provided by another feature (as from Kensei or Tavern Brawler)
Using the base weapon as a thrown weapon:
Based on Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice, weapons being used as an improvised weapon have none of their regular properties, unless the DM states otherwise. This ruling was made to answer whether a Ranged Weapon can still get benefits as a Ranged Weapon when being used for a melee attack (as when using Sharpshooter while bashing someone with a bow).
Using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon will treat it as if you're using a separate weapon and will no longer apply benefits specific to the original weapon, including your original proficiency bonus.
2
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
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Yes
Assuming the DM rules that some weapon you are proficient in is “similar” to a weapon your “character is proficient with.” I have a hard time imagining how anyone could argue that this is not the case, since to do so would require claiming that the weapon is not an object “similar” to itself.
Relevant rules quotes:
If a character [...] throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This shows that when you throw a non-thrown-melee weapon, it is an “improvised thrown weapon.”
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club.
This is a possibility for any improvised weapon. A non-thrown-melee weapon that gets thrown counts as a improvised thrown weapon, which is to say it is an improvised weapon, and since it actually is a weapon, it is certainly “similar” to the weapon it actually is.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
And this shows that in the case of an improvised weapon being similar to an actual weapon, which almost-certainly must be the case here, proficiency bonus applies.
Irrelevant rules quotes
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object).
A weapon is not an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon. Therefore this sentence, in its entirety, does not apply, which is precisely why the next line, quoted above, says that throwing non-thrown-melee weapons “also” reduces their damage to 1d4.
If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise.
(Jeremy Crawford tweet)
We aren’t discussing a regular property of the weapon—by definition we are discussing a property the weapon doesn’t regularly have, since we are talking about the thrown property of a weapon that doesn’t have it—so the fact that a weapon doesn’t have its regular properties is irrelevant. Jeremy Crawford does not deny an improvised thrown weapon its irregular thrown property, which the rules explicitly grant it.
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
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1
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Yes
The rules for weapon proficiency state (emphasis mine):
Proficiency with a weapon allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll for any Attack you make with that weapon.
Since throwing a weapon you are proficient with is making an Attack roll with that weapon, you may add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll.
To cite the rules cited in Daniel Zastoupil's answer:
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
The bolded text makes it clear that using a ranged weapon for a melee attack or a melee weapon for a ranged attack does not cause that weapon to no longer be considered a weapon. When throwing a longsword at someone, you are still considered to be using a longsword. Using a weapon for an improvised purpose does not mean you should lose proficiency in it. Improvised weapons are weapons that were not considered weapons to begin with.
The damage reduction makes sense here as well - if you were to throw a sword designed for melee, it would stand to reason that the damage would not be as effective. As well, if hitting someone with a longbow, it stands to reason you would only deal 1d4 damage rather than the regular 1d8, since the 1d8 comes from the proper use of the weapon to fire an arrow.
1
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
12
down vote
Only if you are ruled as using an improvised version of a proficient weapon
The relevant piece of information, PHB p. 147:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with
whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object
you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg,
a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and
can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At
the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a
similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the
DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character
uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon
that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An
improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long
range of 60 feet.
Note the italicized line. It's not that every improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage when thrown, only those that "bears no resemblance to a weapon". And since your proficiency is based on the fact that you "can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus", you cannot gain both benefits with the same weapon.
With this information, you effectively have two choices:
Have your DM treat the original weapon as a second, different weapon that has the Thrown feature. Example: treating a Halfling's War Hammer (no Thrown) as a Goliath's Light Hammer (with Thrown).
Make your attack as using an Improvised Weapon, dealing 1d4 damage and using the default thrown option of 20/60 range, and only adding proficiency if provided by another feature (as from Kensei or Tavern Brawler)
Using the base weapon as a thrown weapon:
Based on Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice, weapons being used as an improvised weapon have none of their regular properties, unless the DM states otherwise. This ruling was made to answer whether a Ranged Weapon can still get benefits as a Ranged Weapon when being used for a melee attack (as when using Sharpshooter while bashing someone with a bow).
Using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon will treat it as if you're using a separate weapon and will no longer apply benefits specific to the original weapon, including your original proficiency bonus.
2
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
Only if you are ruled as using an improvised version of a proficient weapon
The relevant piece of information, PHB p. 147:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with
whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object
you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg,
a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and
can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At
the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a
similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the
DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character
uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon
that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An
improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long
range of 60 feet.
Note the italicized line. It's not that every improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage when thrown, only those that "bears no resemblance to a weapon". And since your proficiency is based on the fact that you "can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus", you cannot gain both benefits with the same weapon.
With this information, you effectively have two choices:
Have your DM treat the original weapon as a second, different weapon that has the Thrown feature. Example: treating a Halfling's War Hammer (no Thrown) as a Goliath's Light Hammer (with Thrown).
Make your attack as using an Improvised Weapon, dealing 1d4 damage and using the default thrown option of 20/60 range, and only adding proficiency if provided by another feature (as from Kensei or Tavern Brawler)
Using the base weapon as a thrown weapon:
Based on Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice, weapons being used as an improvised weapon have none of their regular properties, unless the DM states otherwise. This ruling was made to answer whether a Ranged Weapon can still get benefits as a Ranged Weapon when being used for a melee attack (as when using Sharpshooter while bashing someone with a bow).
Using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon will treat it as if you're using a separate weapon and will no longer apply benefits specific to the original weapon, including your original proficiency bonus.
2
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
12
down vote
up vote
12
down vote
Only if you are ruled as using an improvised version of a proficient weapon
The relevant piece of information, PHB p. 147:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with
whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object
you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg,
a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and
can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At
the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a
similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the
DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character
uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon
that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An
improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long
range of 60 feet.
Note the italicized line. It's not that every improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage when thrown, only those that "bears no resemblance to a weapon". And since your proficiency is based on the fact that you "can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus", you cannot gain both benefits with the same weapon.
With this information, you effectively have two choices:
Have your DM treat the original weapon as a second, different weapon that has the Thrown feature. Example: treating a Halfling's War Hammer (no Thrown) as a Goliath's Light Hammer (with Thrown).
Make your attack as using an Improvised Weapon, dealing 1d4 damage and using the default thrown option of 20/60 range, and only adding proficiency if provided by another feature (as from Kensei or Tavern Brawler)
Using the base weapon as a thrown weapon:
Based on Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice, weapons being used as an improvised weapon have none of their regular properties, unless the DM states otherwise. This ruling was made to answer whether a Ranged Weapon can still get benefits as a Ranged Weapon when being used for a melee attack (as when using Sharpshooter while bashing someone with a bow).
Using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon will treat it as if you're using a separate weapon and will no longer apply benefits specific to the original weapon, including your original proficiency bonus.
Only if you are ruled as using an improvised version of a proficient weapon
The relevant piece of information, PHB p. 147:
Improvised Weapons
Sometimes characters don’t have their weapons and have to attack with
whatever is close at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object
you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg,
a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and
can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At
the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a
similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her
proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the
DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character
uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon
that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An
improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long
range of 60 feet.
Note the italicized line. It's not that every improvised weapon deals 1d4 damage when thrown, only those that "bears no resemblance to a weapon". And since your proficiency is based on the fact that you "can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus", you cannot gain both benefits with the same weapon.
With this information, you effectively have two choices:
Have your DM treat the original weapon as a second, different weapon that has the Thrown feature. Example: treating a Halfling's War Hammer (no Thrown) as a Goliath's Light Hammer (with Thrown).
Make your attack as using an Improvised Weapon, dealing 1d4 damage and using the default thrown option of 20/60 range, and only adding proficiency if provided by another feature (as from Kensei or Tavern Brawler)
Using the base weapon as a thrown weapon:
Based on Jeremy Crawford's Sage Advice, weapons being used as an improvised weapon have none of their regular properties, unless the DM states otherwise. This ruling was made to answer whether a Ranged Weapon can still get benefits as a Ranged Weapon when being used for a melee attack (as when using Sharpshooter while bashing someone with a bow).
Using the weapon as an Improvised Weapon will treat it as if you're using a separate weapon and will no longer apply benefits specific to the original weapon, including your original proficiency bonus.
edited 45 mins ago
Sdjz
10.4k34993
10.4k34993
answered 18 hours ago
Daniel Zastoupil
6,8581473
6,8581473
2
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
add a comment |
2
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
2
2
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
You might add the following link from JC which states that "If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise." twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/933436175649406976
– Rykara
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
@Rykara I've added your link in. Thank you for your help!
– Daniel Zastoupil
16 hours ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
I cannot figure out whether you are answering yes or no. Also, the italicized clause has absolutely nothing to do with the case of throwing a non-throwing-melee weapon; it’s a separate sentence, applying only to that sentence, and then the second sentence introduces separate cases (including throwing a non-thrown-melee weapon) that behave the same way as “an object that bears no resemblence to a weapon.” Jeremy Crawfords tweet is likewise irrelevant, because we aren’t talking about a weapon’s regular properties, but rather one explicitly given to it by the improvised rules.
– KRyan
38 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Yes
Assuming the DM rules that some weapon you are proficient in is “similar” to a weapon your “character is proficient with.” I have a hard time imagining how anyone could argue that this is not the case, since to do so would require claiming that the weapon is not an object “similar” to itself.
Relevant rules quotes:
If a character [...] throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This shows that when you throw a non-thrown-melee weapon, it is an “improvised thrown weapon.”
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club.
This is a possibility for any improvised weapon. A non-thrown-melee weapon that gets thrown counts as a improvised thrown weapon, which is to say it is an improvised weapon, and since it actually is a weapon, it is certainly “similar” to the weapon it actually is.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
And this shows that in the case of an improvised weapon being similar to an actual weapon, which almost-certainly must be the case here, proficiency bonus applies.
Irrelevant rules quotes
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object).
A weapon is not an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon. Therefore this sentence, in its entirety, does not apply, which is precisely why the next line, quoted above, says that throwing non-thrown-melee weapons “also” reduces their damage to 1d4.
If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise.
(Jeremy Crawford tweet)
We aren’t discussing a regular property of the weapon—by definition we are discussing a property the weapon doesn’t regularly have, since we are talking about the thrown property of a weapon that doesn’t have it—so the fact that a weapon doesn’t have its regular properties is irrelevant. Jeremy Crawford does not deny an improvised thrown weapon its irregular thrown property, which the rules explicitly grant it.
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Yes
Assuming the DM rules that some weapon you are proficient in is “similar” to a weapon your “character is proficient with.” I have a hard time imagining how anyone could argue that this is not the case, since to do so would require claiming that the weapon is not an object “similar” to itself.
Relevant rules quotes:
If a character [...] throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This shows that when you throw a non-thrown-melee weapon, it is an “improvised thrown weapon.”
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club.
This is a possibility for any improvised weapon. A non-thrown-melee weapon that gets thrown counts as a improvised thrown weapon, which is to say it is an improvised weapon, and since it actually is a weapon, it is certainly “similar” to the weapon it actually is.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
And this shows that in the case of an improvised weapon being similar to an actual weapon, which almost-certainly must be the case here, proficiency bonus applies.
Irrelevant rules quotes
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object).
A weapon is not an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon. Therefore this sentence, in its entirety, does not apply, which is precisely why the next line, quoted above, says that throwing non-thrown-melee weapons “also” reduces their damage to 1d4.
If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise.
(Jeremy Crawford tweet)
We aren’t discussing a regular property of the weapon—by definition we are discussing a property the weapon doesn’t regularly have, since we are talking about the thrown property of a weapon that doesn’t have it—so the fact that a weapon doesn’t have its regular properties is irrelevant. Jeremy Crawford does not deny an improvised thrown weapon its irregular thrown property, which the rules explicitly grant it.
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Yes
Assuming the DM rules that some weapon you are proficient in is “similar” to a weapon your “character is proficient with.” I have a hard time imagining how anyone could argue that this is not the case, since to do so would require claiming that the weapon is not an object “similar” to itself.
Relevant rules quotes:
If a character [...] throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This shows that when you throw a non-thrown-melee weapon, it is an “improvised thrown weapon.”
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club.
This is a possibility for any improvised weapon. A non-thrown-melee weapon that gets thrown counts as a improvised thrown weapon, which is to say it is an improvised weapon, and since it actually is a weapon, it is certainly “similar” to the weapon it actually is.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
And this shows that in the case of an improvised weapon being similar to an actual weapon, which almost-certainly must be the case here, proficiency bonus applies.
Irrelevant rules quotes
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object).
A weapon is not an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon. Therefore this sentence, in its entirety, does not apply, which is precisely why the next line, quoted above, says that throwing non-thrown-melee weapons “also” reduces their damage to 1d4.
If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise.
(Jeremy Crawford tweet)
We aren’t discussing a regular property of the weapon—by definition we are discussing a property the weapon doesn’t regularly have, since we are talking about the thrown property of a weapon that doesn’t have it—so the fact that a weapon doesn’t have its regular properties is irrelevant. Jeremy Crawford does not deny an improvised thrown weapon its irregular thrown property, which the rules explicitly grant it.
Yes
Assuming the DM rules that some weapon you are proficient in is “similar” to a weapon your “character is proficient with.” I have a hard time imagining how anyone could argue that this is not the case, since to do so would require claiming that the weapon is not an object “similar” to itself.
Relevant rules quotes:
If a character [...] throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
This shows that when you throw a non-thrown-melee weapon, it is an “improvised thrown weapon.”
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club.
This is a possibility for any improvised weapon. A non-thrown-melee weapon that gets thrown counts as a improvised thrown weapon, which is to say it is an improvised weapon, and since it actually is a weapon, it is certainly “similar” to the weapon it actually is.
At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
And this shows that in the case of an improvised weapon being similar to an actual weapon, which almost-certainly must be the case here, proficiency bonus applies.
Irrelevant rules quotes
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object).
A weapon is not an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon. Therefore this sentence, in its entirety, does not apply, which is precisely why the next line, quoted above, says that throwing non-thrown-melee weapons “also” reduces their damage to 1d4.
If you use a weapon in a way that turns it into an improvised weapon—such as smacking someone with a bow—that weapon has none of its regular properties, unless the DM rules otherwise.
(Jeremy Crawford tweet)
We aren’t discussing a regular property of the weapon—by definition we are discussing a property the weapon doesn’t regularly have, since we are talking about the thrown property of a weapon that doesn’t have it—so the fact that a weapon doesn’t have its regular properties is irrelevant. Jeremy Crawford does not deny an improvised thrown weapon its irregular thrown property, which the rules explicitly grant it.
answered 23 mins ago
KRyan
216k28539929
216k28539929
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
add a comment |
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
This is certainly an interesting reading of the rules. I am having trouble understanding the last paragraph though. Can you simplify it somehow?
– Sdjz
18 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
@Sdjz I don’t see what’s “interesting” about it—it’s just what the rules say. As opposed to the accepted answer, which seems to posit some kind of “Schoedinger’s weapon” that both is and is not an improvised weapon at the same time. Anyway, the last paragraph is addressing this tweet that says that an improvised thrown weapon has none of its “regular” properties. A thrown warhammer loses its versatile (1d10) property, for example. But it gains the thrown property—which is not one of its regular properties—when it’s used as an improvised thrown weapon. The tweet doesn’t stop that.
– KRyan
3 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Yes
The rules for weapon proficiency state (emphasis mine):
Proficiency with a weapon allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll for any Attack you make with that weapon.
Since throwing a weapon you are proficient with is making an Attack roll with that weapon, you may add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll.
To cite the rules cited in Daniel Zastoupil's answer:
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
The bolded text makes it clear that using a ranged weapon for a melee attack or a melee weapon for a ranged attack does not cause that weapon to no longer be considered a weapon. When throwing a longsword at someone, you are still considered to be using a longsword. Using a weapon for an improvised purpose does not mean you should lose proficiency in it. Improvised weapons are weapons that were not considered weapons to begin with.
The damage reduction makes sense here as well - if you were to throw a sword designed for melee, it would stand to reason that the damage would not be as effective. As well, if hitting someone with a longbow, it stands to reason you would only deal 1d4 damage rather than the regular 1d8, since the 1d8 comes from the proper use of the weapon to fire an arrow.
1
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
Yes
The rules for weapon proficiency state (emphasis mine):
Proficiency with a weapon allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll for any Attack you make with that weapon.
Since throwing a weapon you are proficient with is making an Attack roll with that weapon, you may add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll.
To cite the rules cited in Daniel Zastoupil's answer:
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
The bolded text makes it clear that using a ranged weapon for a melee attack or a melee weapon for a ranged attack does not cause that weapon to no longer be considered a weapon. When throwing a longsword at someone, you are still considered to be using a longsword. Using a weapon for an improvised purpose does not mean you should lose proficiency in it. Improvised weapons are weapons that were not considered weapons to begin with.
The damage reduction makes sense here as well - if you were to throw a sword designed for melee, it would stand to reason that the damage would not be as effective. As well, if hitting someone with a longbow, it stands to reason you would only deal 1d4 damage rather than the regular 1d8, since the 1d8 comes from the proper use of the weapon to fire an arrow.
1
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
Yes
The rules for weapon proficiency state (emphasis mine):
Proficiency with a weapon allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll for any Attack you make with that weapon.
Since throwing a weapon you are proficient with is making an Attack roll with that weapon, you may add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll.
To cite the rules cited in Daniel Zastoupil's answer:
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
The bolded text makes it clear that using a ranged weapon for a melee attack or a melee weapon for a ranged attack does not cause that weapon to no longer be considered a weapon. When throwing a longsword at someone, you are still considered to be using a longsword. Using a weapon for an improvised purpose does not mean you should lose proficiency in it. Improvised weapons are weapons that were not considered weapons to begin with.
The damage reduction makes sense here as well - if you were to throw a sword designed for melee, it would stand to reason that the damage would not be as effective. As well, if hitting someone with a longbow, it stands to reason you would only deal 1d4 damage rather than the regular 1d8, since the 1d8 comes from the proper use of the weapon to fire an arrow.
Yes
The rules for weapon proficiency state (emphasis mine):
Proficiency with a weapon allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll for any Attack you make with that weapon.
Since throwing a weapon you are proficient with is making an Attack roll with that weapon, you may add your proficiency bonus to the Attack roll.
To cite the rules cited in Daniel Zastoupil's answer:
In many cases, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.
The bolded text makes it clear that using a ranged weapon for a melee attack or a melee weapon for a ranged attack does not cause that weapon to no longer be considered a weapon. When throwing a longsword at someone, you are still considered to be using a longsword. Using a weapon for an improvised purpose does not mean you should lose proficiency in it. Improvised weapons are weapons that were not considered weapons to begin with.
The damage reduction makes sense here as well - if you were to throw a sword designed for melee, it would stand to reason that the damage would not be as effective. As well, if hitting someone with a longbow, it stands to reason you would only deal 1d4 damage rather than the regular 1d8, since the 1d8 comes from the proper use of the weapon to fire an arrow.
edited 9 mins ago
answered 19 hours ago
Chrygore
43528
43528
1
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
add a comment |
1
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
1
1
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
Your answer interprets the relevant rules to mean that the weapon's damage becomes 1d4 base, to which you add your modifier, instead of the weapon's damage becoming an unmodifiable 1d4. This is an unusual interpretation, though the rules are written sloppily enough that I can see a case being made for it. Can you add any other supporting references/arguments?
– Rykara
18 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
@Rykara I've made an edit. Let me know what your thoughts are on this. For me as a DM, I feel that "proficiency" implies that you are able to use your weapon in every way possible with skill, just as Legolas utilizes his bow and arrows in close quarters combat in The Lord of the Rings. However, I can definitely see why one might not agree with my interpretation.
– Chrygore
17 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
Relevant meta: Don't signal your edits in text. You should edit your answer to stand as if it were always the best version of itself. (Also, comments are ephemeral, and may be deleted. Rather than referring to "the comment below", you may want to mention the author - and summarize/quote it in your answer, if necessary.)
– V2Blast
13 hours ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
@V2Blast that's a good point, thank you.
– Chrygore
10 mins ago
add a comment |
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