Matrix-vector product: representing matrix as vector of vectors seemingly leads to paradox when transposing...
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I'm currently taking a university class on linear algebra. In some proofs, a given matrix $A in mathbb{R}^{mtimes n}$ is said to be able to be represented as a $1times n$ row vector of $m times 1$ column vectors, i.e.:
$$
A = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}]
$$
with $vec{a_i}$ the ith column of $A$. Naturally, the transpose of $A$, as used in most such proofs, would then be given by an $ntimes 1$ column vector of $1times m$ row vectors:
$$
A^T = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^T
$$
When performing matrix-vector multiplication of the form $Avec x$, I know the vector's amount of rows has to match the matrix's amount of columns. (In this case, $vec x$ would be an $n times 1$ column vector, and the result would be an $[m times n][n times 1] = [m times 1]$ column vector.)
Now, when considering $A$ as a row vector as in the first equation, we can see that this holds up, as the result would be $[1 times n][n times 1] = [1 times 1]$, though containing a sum of scaled $m times 1$ column vectors, so, after scaling and adding, an $m times 1$ column vector.
$$
Avec x = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}][x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1}cdot x_1 + vec{a_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{m times 1}
$$
My problem, then, arises when considering the same product, but swapping $A$ with $A^T$ (Edit: For clarity, this is not transposing $Ax$, but rather interchanging $A$ to see what happens.), thus $A^Tvec x$ with $vec x$ the same $n times 1$ column vector. Conventionally, this would be the product of an $n times m$ matrix with an $n times 1$ vector: impossible. However, when considering $A^T$ as an $n times 1$ column vector like in the second equation, this does seem to become possible, namely as the dot of two vectors of equal dimensions:
$$
A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec x = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^Tboldsymbol{cdot}[x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1^T}cdot x_1 + vec{a^T_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a^T_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{1times n}
$$
This, to me, seems to be a paradox, as there obviously is a mismatch in the dimensions of $vec x$ (i.e. $n$) and the dimensions of the input space of $A^T$ (i.e. $m$), yet, rewriting $A^T$ as a vector, as is done with $A$, eliminates said mismatch, as it seems. Is it wrong to assume one can eliminate this mismatch? Is it wrong to assume the matrix-vector product of a matrix in $mathbb{R}^{ntimes 1}$ with a vector in $mathbb{R}^n$ to be equal to the dot product of two vectors in $mathbb{R}^n$? Is it wrong to write a matrix as a vector of vectors, or perhaps to transpose such a construction?
linear-algebra matrices vectors transpose
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I'm currently taking a university class on linear algebra. In some proofs, a given matrix $A in mathbb{R}^{mtimes n}$ is said to be able to be represented as a $1times n$ row vector of $m times 1$ column vectors, i.e.:
$$
A = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}]
$$
with $vec{a_i}$ the ith column of $A$. Naturally, the transpose of $A$, as used in most such proofs, would then be given by an $ntimes 1$ column vector of $1times m$ row vectors:
$$
A^T = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^T
$$
When performing matrix-vector multiplication of the form $Avec x$, I know the vector's amount of rows has to match the matrix's amount of columns. (In this case, $vec x$ would be an $n times 1$ column vector, and the result would be an $[m times n][n times 1] = [m times 1]$ column vector.)
Now, when considering $A$ as a row vector as in the first equation, we can see that this holds up, as the result would be $[1 times n][n times 1] = [1 times 1]$, though containing a sum of scaled $m times 1$ column vectors, so, after scaling and adding, an $m times 1$ column vector.
$$
Avec x = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}][x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1}cdot x_1 + vec{a_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{m times 1}
$$
My problem, then, arises when considering the same product, but swapping $A$ with $A^T$ (Edit: For clarity, this is not transposing $Ax$, but rather interchanging $A$ to see what happens.), thus $A^Tvec x$ with $vec x$ the same $n times 1$ column vector. Conventionally, this would be the product of an $n times m$ matrix with an $n times 1$ vector: impossible. However, when considering $A^T$ as an $n times 1$ column vector like in the second equation, this does seem to become possible, namely as the dot of two vectors of equal dimensions:
$$
A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec x = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^Tboldsymbol{cdot}[x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1^T}cdot x_1 + vec{a^T_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a^T_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{1times n}
$$
This, to me, seems to be a paradox, as there obviously is a mismatch in the dimensions of $vec x$ (i.e. $n$) and the dimensions of the input space of $A^T$ (i.e. $m$), yet, rewriting $A^T$ as a vector, as is done with $A$, eliminates said mismatch, as it seems. Is it wrong to assume one can eliminate this mismatch? Is it wrong to assume the matrix-vector product of a matrix in $mathbb{R}^{ntimes 1}$ with a vector in $mathbb{R}^n$ to be equal to the dot product of two vectors in $mathbb{R}^n$? Is it wrong to write a matrix as a vector of vectors, or perhaps to transpose such a construction?
linear-algebra matrices vectors transpose
If you transpose $Ax$ you get $x^T A^T$, not $A^T x$, which generally won't make sense. The product you write down in your last equation doesn't make sense either.
– Qiaochu Yuan
Nov 14 at 9:35
Yes, I know $(AB)^T = B^TA^T$, but that's not what I'm asking about.
– Mew
Nov 14 at 9:44
add a comment |
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0
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I'm currently taking a university class on linear algebra. In some proofs, a given matrix $A in mathbb{R}^{mtimes n}$ is said to be able to be represented as a $1times n$ row vector of $m times 1$ column vectors, i.e.:
$$
A = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}]
$$
with $vec{a_i}$ the ith column of $A$. Naturally, the transpose of $A$, as used in most such proofs, would then be given by an $ntimes 1$ column vector of $1times m$ row vectors:
$$
A^T = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^T
$$
When performing matrix-vector multiplication of the form $Avec x$, I know the vector's amount of rows has to match the matrix's amount of columns. (In this case, $vec x$ would be an $n times 1$ column vector, and the result would be an $[m times n][n times 1] = [m times 1]$ column vector.)
Now, when considering $A$ as a row vector as in the first equation, we can see that this holds up, as the result would be $[1 times n][n times 1] = [1 times 1]$, though containing a sum of scaled $m times 1$ column vectors, so, after scaling and adding, an $m times 1$ column vector.
$$
Avec x = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}][x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1}cdot x_1 + vec{a_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{m times 1}
$$
My problem, then, arises when considering the same product, but swapping $A$ with $A^T$ (Edit: For clarity, this is not transposing $Ax$, but rather interchanging $A$ to see what happens.), thus $A^Tvec x$ with $vec x$ the same $n times 1$ column vector. Conventionally, this would be the product of an $n times m$ matrix with an $n times 1$ vector: impossible. However, when considering $A^T$ as an $n times 1$ column vector like in the second equation, this does seem to become possible, namely as the dot of two vectors of equal dimensions:
$$
A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec x = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^Tboldsymbol{cdot}[x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1^T}cdot x_1 + vec{a^T_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a^T_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{1times n}
$$
This, to me, seems to be a paradox, as there obviously is a mismatch in the dimensions of $vec x$ (i.e. $n$) and the dimensions of the input space of $A^T$ (i.e. $m$), yet, rewriting $A^T$ as a vector, as is done with $A$, eliminates said mismatch, as it seems. Is it wrong to assume one can eliminate this mismatch? Is it wrong to assume the matrix-vector product of a matrix in $mathbb{R}^{ntimes 1}$ with a vector in $mathbb{R}^n$ to be equal to the dot product of two vectors in $mathbb{R}^n$? Is it wrong to write a matrix as a vector of vectors, or perhaps to transpose such a construction?
linear-algebra matrices vectors transpose
I'm currently taking a university class on linear algebra. In some proofs, a given matrix $A in mathbb{R}^{mtimes n}$ is said to be able to be represented as a $1times n$ row vector of $m times 1$ column vectors, i.e.:
$$
A = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}]
$$
with $vec{a_i}$ the ith column of $A$. Naturally, the transpose of $A$, as used in most such proofs, would then be given by an $ntimes 1$ column vector of $1times m$ row vectors:
$$
A^T = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^T
$$
When performing matrix-vector multiplication of the form $Avec x$, I know the vector's amount of rows has to match the matrix's amount of columns. (In this case, $vec x$ would be an $n times 1$ column vector, and the result would be an $[m times n][n times 1] = [m times 1]$ column vector.)
Now, when considering $A$ as a row vector as in the first equation, we can see that this holds up, as the result would be $[1 times n][n times 1] = [1 times 1]$, though containing a sum of scaled $m times 1$ column vectors, so, after scaling and adding, an $m times 1$ column vector.
$$
Avec x = [vec{a_1}quadvec{a_2}quaddotsquad vec{a_n}][x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1}cdot x_1 + vec{a_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{m times 1}
$$
My problem, then, arises when considering the same product, but swapping $A$ with $A^T$ (Edit: For clarity, this is not transposing $Ax$, but rather interchanging $A$ to see what happens.), thus $A^Tvec x$ with $vec x$ the same $n times 1$ column vector. Conventionally, this would be the product of an $n times m$ matrix with an $n times 1$ vector: impossible. However, when considering $A^T$ as an $n times 1$ column vector like in the second equation, this does seem to become possible, namely as the dot of two vectors of equal dimensions:
$$
A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec x = [vec{a_1^T}quadvec{a_2^T}quaddotsquad vec{a_n^T}]^Tboldsymbol{cdot}[x_1quad x_2 quaddotsquad x_n]^T = vec{a_1^T}cdot x_1 + vec{a^T_2}cdot x_2 + dots + vec{a^T_n}cdot x_n in mathbb{R}^{1times n}
$$
This, to me, seems to be a paradox, as there obviously is a mismatch in the dimensions of $vec x$ (i.e. $n$) and the dimensions of the input space of $A^T$ (i.e. $m$), yet, rewriting $A^T$ as a vector, as is done with $A$, eliminates said mismatch, as it seems. Is it wrong to assume one can eliminate this mismatch? Is it wrong to assume the matrix-vector product of a matrix in $mathbb{R}^{ntimes 1}$ with a vector in $mathbb{R}^n$ to be equal to the dot product of two vectors in $mathbb{R}^n$? Is it wrong to write a matrix as a vector of vectors, or perhaps to transpose such a construction?
linear-algebra matrices vectors transpose
linear-algebra matrices vectors transpose
edited Nov 22 at 16:38
asked Nov 14 at 9:31
Mew
33
33
If you transpose $Ax$ you get $x^T A^T$, not $A^T x$, which generally won't make sense. The product you write down in your last equation doesn't make sense either.
– Qiaochu Yuan
Nov 14 at 9:35
Yes, I know $(AB)^T = B^TA^T$, but that's not what I'm asking about.
– Mew
Nov 14 at 9:44
add a comment |
If you transpose $Ax$ you get $x^T A^T$, not $A^T x$, which generally won't make sense. The product you write down in your last equation doesn't make sense either.
– Qiaochu Yuan
Nov 14 at 9:35
Yes, I know $(AB)^T = B^TA^T$, but that's not what I'm asking about.
– Mew
Nov 14 at 9:44
If you transpose $Ax$ you get $x^T A^T$, not $A^T x$, which generally won't make sense. The product you write down in your last equation doesn't make sense either.
– Qiaochu Yuan
Nov 14 at 9:35
If you transpose $Ax$ you get $x^T A^T$, not $A^T x$, which generally won't make sense. The product you write down in your last equation doesn't make sense either.
– Qiaochu Yuan
Nov 14 at 9:35
Yes, I know $(AB)^T = B^TA^T$, but that's not what I'm asking about.
– Mew
Nov 14 at 9:44
Yes, I know $(AB)^T = B^TA^T$, but that's not what I'm asking about.
– Mew
Nov 14 at 9:44
add a comment |
1 Answer
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There are 2 wrong things:
1) Although you can write an $n times m$ matrix as a table with $m $ columns each of which is a column vector of $n $ entries, this does not mean you are allowed to consider that its dimension is $1 times m $. It is still $n times m$.
2) the dot product of vectors $a $ and $b $ is carried out as $a^T , b $ so dimensions must not be equal, the must be $1 times n $ and $n times 1$.
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
add a comment |
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1 Answer
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1 Answer
1
active
oldest
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oldest
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active
oldest
votes
up vote
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down vote
accepted
There are 2 wrong things:
1) Although you can write an $n times m$ matrix as a table with $m $ columns each of which is a column vector of $n $ entries, this does not mean you are allowed to consider that its dimension is $1 times m $. It is still $n times m$.
2) the dot product of vectors $a $ and $b $ is carried out as $a^T , b $ so dimensions must not be equal, the must be $1 times n $ and $n times 1$.
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
There are 2 wrong things:
1) Although you can write an $n times m$ matrix as a table with $m $ columns each of which is a column vector of $n $ entries, this does not mean you are allowed to consider that its dimension is $1 times m $. It is still $n times m$.
2) the dot product of vectors $a $ and $b $ is carried out as $a^T , b $ so dimensions must not be equal, the must be $1 times n $ and $n times 1$.
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
up vote
1
down vote
accepted
There are 2 wrong things:
1) Although you can write an $n times m$ matrix as a table with $m $ columns each of which is a column vector of $n $ entries, this does not mean you are allowed to consider that its dimension is $1 times m $. It is still $n times m$.
2) the dot product of vectors $a $ and $b $ is carried out as $a^T , b $ so dimensions must not be equal, the must be $1 times n $ and $n times 1$.
There are 2 wrong things:
1) Although you can write an $n times m$ matrix as a table with $m $ columns each of which is a column vector of $n $ entries, this does not mean you are allowed to consider that its dimension is $1 times m $. It is still $n times m$.
2) the dot product of vectors $a $ and $b $ is carried out as $a^T , b $ so dimensions must not be equal, the must be $1 times n $ and $n times 1$.
answered Nov 15 at 3:34
Javi
3829
3829
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
add a comment |
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I guess the first remark solves my issue; i.e., a "vector of vectors" is a slippery term that does not behave like a regular vector, even though it is used fairly often to explain matrix multiplication (among other topics like orthogonal projection). The second remark is probably a misunderstanding of what I wrote, or perhaps of my use of transposes for $vec x$ as to not clutter the page with columns: when dotting $vec a$ and $vec b$ as $vec acdot vec b$, both vectors ought to be of identical dimensions, but of course, representing it as a matrix-vector product transposes $vec a$.
– Mew
Nov 18 at 22:06
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
I do believe that the second point holds, because in your question, when you interchange $A$ with $A^T$, the resulting expression $A^T vec{x}$ is a "matrix-vector product" as you call it, not a dot product, so dimensions really must not be identical.
– Javi
Nov 19 at 22:51
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
Ah, that's a notational error on my part, I see what you mean now. The intended expression was $A^Tboldsymbol{cdot}vec{x}$.
– Mew
Nov 22 at 16:39
add a comment |
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If you transpose $Ax$ you get $x^T A^T$, not $A^T x$, which generally won't make sense. The product you write down in your last equation doesn't make sense either.
– Qiaochu Yuan
Nov 14 at 9:35
Yes, I know $(AB)^T = B^TA^T$, but that's not what I'm asking about.
– Mew
Nov 14 at 9:44