Outsourcing trivial authorless work
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I have worked on a problem for close to two years. I feel I have an adequate theoretical solution. However I feel to get some backing on the theory I need some quantitative hard computer data. It is only a few days work of programming. Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement? This is only for time reasons as I am not familiar with tools required. Everything will be given as cook book to the interested programmer.
publications mathematics ethics computer-science research-undergraduate
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I have worked on a problem for close to two years. I feel I have an adequate theoretical solution. However I feel to get some backing on the theory I need some quantitative hard computer data. It is only a few days work of programming. Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement? This is only for time reasons as I am not familiar with tools required. Everything will be given as cook book to the interested programmer.
publications mathematics ethics computer-science research-undergraduate
New contributor
Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
18
How do you know it's only a few days work? What are the limits on you implementing this yourself?
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
18
Why don't you want to credit them? Given that you need this and they provided a significant contribution they deserve to be coauthors.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
32
Why would an undergrad volunteer to do something for you for literally no benefit for themself? And second, are you really sure that they'd turn out good enough work that you could trust it without spending an equally long chunk of time verifying it yourself?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
18
Why not add them as an author? What's your reason for not wanting to do so in the first place?
– Konrad Rudolph
yesterday
26
In the area where I live, the seasoned programmer earns ~ 100$ per hour. In addition to this I have noticed that people do not become seasoned programmers out of a sudden, it takes years of work to become a seasoned programmer.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
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up vote
18
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favorite
up vote
18
down vote
favorite
I have worked on a problem for close to two years. I feel I have an adequate theoretical solution. However I feel to get some backing on the theory I need some quantitative hard computer data. It is only a few days work of programming. Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement? This is only for time reasons as I am not familiar with tools required. Everything will be given as cook book to the interested programmer.
publications mathematics ethics computer-science research-undergraduate
New contributor
Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
I have worked on a problem for close to two years. I feel I have an adequate theoretical solution. However I feel to get some backing on the theory I need some quantitative hard computer data. It is only a few days work of programming. Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement? This is only for time reasons as I am not familiar with tools required. Everything will be given as cook book to the interested programmer.
publications mathematics ethics computer-science research-undergraduate
publications mathematics ethics computer-science research-undergraduate
New contributor
Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 18 hours ago
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Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked yesterday
Freeman.
20014
20014
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Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Freeman. is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
18
How do you know it's only a few days work? What are the limits on you implementing this yourself?
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
18
Why don't you want to credit them? Given that you need this and they provided a significant contribution they deserve to be coauthors.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
32
Why would an undergrad volunteer to do something for you for literally no benefit for themself? And second, are you really sure that they'd turn out good enough work that you could trust it without spending an equally long chunk of time verifying it yourself?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
18
Why not add them as an author? What's your reason for not wanting to do so in the first place?
– Konrad Rudolph
yesterday
26
In the area where I live, the seasoned programmer earns ~ 100$ per hour. In addition to this I have noticed that people do not become seasoned programmers out of a sudden, it takes years of work to become a seasoned programmer.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
18
How do you know it's only a few days work? What are the limits on you implementing this yourself?
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
18
Why don't you want to credit them? Given that you need this and they provided a significant contribution they deserve to be coauthors.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
32
Why would an undergrad volunteer to do something for you for literally no benefit for themself? And second, are you really sure that they'd turn out good enough work that you could trust it without spending an equally long chunk of time verifying it yourself?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
18
Why not add them as an author? What's your reason for not wanting to do so in the first place?
– Konrad Rudolph
yesterday
26
In the area where I live, the seasoned programmer earns ~ 100$ per hour. In addition to this I have noticed that people do not become seasoned programmers out of a sudden, it takes years of work to become a seasoned programmer.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
18
18
How do you know it's only a few days work? What are the limits on you implementing this yourself?
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
How do you know it's only a few days work? What are the limits on you implementing this yourself?
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
18
18
Why don't you want to credit them? Given that you need this and they provided a significant contribution they deserve to be coauthors.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
Why don't you want to credit them? Given that you need this and they provided a significant contribution they deserve to be coauthors.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
32
32
Why would an undergrad volunteer to do something for you for literally no benefit for themself? And second, are you really sure that they'd turn out good enough work that you could trust it without spending an equally long chunk of time verifying it yourself?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
Why would an undergrad volunteer to do something for you for literally no benefit for themself? And second, are you really sure that they'd turn out good enough work that you could trust it without spending an equally long chunk of time verifying it yourself?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
18
18
Why not add them as an author? What's your reason for not wanting to do so in the first place?
– Konrad Rudolph
yesterday
Why not add them as an author? What's your reason for not wanting to do so in the first place?
– Konrad Rudolph
yesterday
26
26
In the area where I live, the seasoned programmer earns ~ 100$ per hour. In addition to this I have noticed that people do not become seasoned programmers out of a sudden, it takes years of work to become a seasoned programmer.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
In the area where I live, the seasoned programmer earns ~ 100$ per hour. In addition to this I have noticed that people do not become seasoned programmers out of a sudden, it takes years of work to become a seasoned programmer.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 8 more comments
8 Answers
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113
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The fact that to a seasoned programmer the work is easy doesn't have anything to do with it. As you describe it, this is work that's required for the publication. Without it, you don't have a paper. With it, you do. Therefore the programmer contributed significantly (critically) to the paper, and therefore the programmer should be an author.
The fact that it's quick and easy for a programmer simply means that programmers have spent significant time and effort learning skills that you don't have. If you consider the work trivial, then go out and learn the skills yourself, and do the work yourself. If that's too much work, then put an appropriate value on that work and offer authorship.
An example in my field is histopathology. I can take tissue slides to an expert who will look at them for five minutes and provide an interpretation. That expert becomes a co-author, not because of their five minutes of work but because of the decades of experience behind it.
Collaborators shouldn't need to run a bloody gauntlet and engage in hand-to-hand combat to become co-authors. If they provide a skill that contributes significantly to the paper, that should be enough.
9
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
67
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
37
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
19
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
33
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 20 more comments
up vote
17
down vote
I don't suppose it's unethical so long as you are clear in your expectations and proposed reward (which is effectively nothing), and the other party fully understands what they are getting into. This could easily become exploitative, however, as you are hoping to get someone to work for you while offering really nothing of value in return. If you are a professor or are some other type of authority figure over the student, I'd tread very carefully here, as you could be exerting undue influence over this person.
I notice that you plan to approach an undergraduate student about this, which could very easily be seen as preying on someone who doesn't know any better. If you have a really interesting problem that's so cool to work on that someone should be happy to do it for a simple "thank you", why not approach a true "seasoned programmer" instead of an undergraduate student? If true professionals find your proposal unpalatable, I'd say it would be unethical to try to hoodwink a less experienced person into the deal.
7
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
16
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Seasoned's programmer's rate would probably be $100-$1000 per day. This, assuming that your estimation is correct (dangerous assumption) means you are asking for a volunteer to provide you with $500-$5000 of free labor(assuming that the work takes 5 days).
I also find it strange that you mention time for a seasoned's programmer, but want to hire an undergrad - the difference in the time required to finish the job might differ much. And no work is "Trivial" if it requires "few days" of expert's work.
Undergrad's work might also be of lower quality because of his lack of experience - what if the program is faulty and returns wrong results? How would you know that?
Ultimately it comes down to how you arrange it - you might find someone willing to do it for free. I suggest considering potential gains (is undergrad contributing $2000 in his time not enough to become a co-author?) and threats ( what if the work takes much longer? what if the program has bugs? what if the undergrad can't do it? ).
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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3
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
1
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
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up vote
11
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Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay
"Ethically wrong"? Maybe not.
But that is the wrong question to ask
However, I feel [that] to get some backing on the theory, I need... computer data.
- You've worked on a problem for two years.
- You're going to trust "a couple days" free work from a random undergrad to prove it?
If you don't know enough to code it yourself, how do you know the code is right?
In other words (and this isn't meant as harsh or flippant) if you can't tell me how you will be able to tell the difference between these two outcomes:
- A person taking your assignment and coding something which produces the answer you expect
- A person writing a program which will prove or disprove your theory
...then you don't need the code, do you?
If it turns out you think #2 is correct, but later someone proves that #1 is what really happened... that's bad.
6
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement?
Yes. Perhaps it wouldn’t be the most terrible ethical offense, but if forced to choose one of the two words “no” or “yes” to answer the question “would it be ethically wrong?”, I’d go with “yes”.
The reason why it’s wrong is that you are going against established conventions of what authorship means. You think that by offering a student some other sort of reward for doing part of the work involved in publishing a paper, whether it be an acknowledgement, a letter of recommendation, or the opportunity to add another experience to their CV, then it is okay to not list them as a coauthor. But this is wrong, for two reasons: first, there is a clear power differential at play here that makes it likely the student may be tempted to go along with your scheme even without really finding the arrangement very fair or agreeable. In other words, it’s exploitation and an abuse of authority (of a sort we hear about all too often on this site unfortunately).
Second, and perhaps even more importantly, it is not just the student you are offending against. The scientific community has an expectation to be given honest and accurate information about who contributed meaningfully to the creation of the paper. And, by current conventions at least, “several days of work by a seasoned programmer” is more than enough to be counted as a coauthor. I find the idea of you reaching a private agreement with the student to deprive the community of that information by having the student give up authorship rights quite problematic, even overlooking the separate issue of exploitation. Imagine for example if rich people started paying famous academics to collaborate on research with them, giving them a high salary with the agreement that the famous and super-talented person will give up their coauthorship rights. Is this just a private transaction between two consenting adults that doesn’t hurt anyone else? No, of course it’s much less innocent and is harmful, since it deprives the community of information it needs to function effectively, and goes against agreed-upon norms of what’s acceptable.
Now, of course, in your situation you are actually the person who will have done almost all the research, and that’s fine. The student being a coauthor doesn’t mean that they will get half the credit for something you worked on for two years. It would be completely legitimate for you to make it clear to people what each coauthor contributed in any way necessary (by writing it in the paper, or in your CV or publication list, research statement etc). You absolutely deserve to get the correct portion of credit, and there is an honest way to make that happen. But as for coauthorship, the student programmer should get it, since they will have contributed time, creative thinking and a technical skill that’s quite nontrivial (at least, nontrivial enough that you yourself don’t possess it) to the project, and those are the accepted criteria for being a coauthor.
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6
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I don't think is unethical if you provide something of value of exchange to the prospective student. Will he gain an understanding of some theory that he/she's interested in as part of the engagement? Be upfront at what you're offering to your prospective collaborator.
If you just want a free coder then yes this is unethical. This is pure and simple exploitation, and abuse of power from your side. Would you like to be on the other side of this exchange?
ps. Check the regulations of your institution!
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Rather than proposing this to an individual, which should be interpreted as coercive since there is a power imbalance, you could publish a call for help, describing what you need and what you offer. Be clear that it is only an ack on offer, not authorship, and no money is involved. Ask for people to apply. You can choose among those who offer to help. Some probably will, but if not, you should consider something more substantial.
If there is a learning component, you could describe that in your "call" as well. It might make it more interesting, even though there is no academic credit involved.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Is the output of the computer program going to be included in the paper? If so, that output has an author, and that author deserves credit. But who is the author? Is it the computer? Is it the program? Or is it the programmer? I think it's the programmer.
If the output has no intellectual merit, why does it add value to the paper? Would including the program input instead of the output serve the reader equally?
Contrary to popular belief, programming is intellectual activity. It deserves respect.
add a comment |
8 Answers
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8 Answers
8
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active
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active
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up vote
113
down vote
The fact that to a seasoned programmer the work is easy doesn't have anything to do with it. As you describe it, this is work that's required for the publication. Without it, you don't have a paper. With it, you do. Therefore the programmer contributed significantly (critically) to the paper, and therefore the programmer should be an author.
The fact that it's quick and easy for a programmer simply means that programmers have spent significant time and effort learning skills that you don't have. If you consider the work trivial, then go out and learn the skills yourself, and do the work yourself. If that's too much work, then put an appropriate value on that work and offer authorship.
An example in my field is histopathology. I can take tissue slides to an expert who will look at them for five minutes and provide an interpretation. That expert becomes a co-author, not because of their five minutes of work but because of the decades of experience behind it.
Collaborators shouldn't need to run a bloody gauntlet and engage in hand-to-hand combat to become co-authors. If they provide a skill that contributes significantly to the paper, that should be enough.
9
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
67
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
37
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
19
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
33
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 20 more comments
up vote
113
down vote
The fact that to a seasoned programmer the work is easy doesn't have anything to do with it. As you describe it, this is work that's required for the publication. Without it, you don't have a paper. With it, you do. Therefore the programmer contributed significantly (critically) to the paper, and therefore the programmer should be an author.
The fact that it's quick and easy for a programmer simply means that programmers have spent significant time and effort learning skills that you don't have. If you consider the work trivial, then go out and learn the skills yourself, and do the work yourself. If that's too much work, then put an appropriate value on that work and offer authorship.
An example in my field is histopathology. I can take tissue slides to an expert who will look at them for five minutes and provide an interpretation. That expert becomes a co-author, not because of their five minutes of work but because of the decades of experience behind it.
Collaborators shouldn't need to run a bloody gauntlet and engage in hand-to-hand combat to become co-authors. If they provide a skill that contributes significantly to the paper, that should be enough.
9
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
67
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
37
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
19
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
33
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 20 more comments
up vote
113
down vote
up vote
113
down vote
The fact that to a seasoned programmer the work is easy doesn't have anything to do with it. As you describe it, this is work that's required for the publication. Without it, you don't have a paper. With it, you do. Therefore the programmer contributed significantly (critically) to the paper, and therefore the programmer should be an author.
The fact that it's quick and easy for a programmer simply means that programmers have spent significant time and effort learning skills that you don't have. If you consider the work trivial, then go out and learn the skills yourself, and do the work yourself. If that's too much work, then put an appropriate value on that work and offer authorship.
An example in my field is histopathology. I can take tissue slides to an expert who will look at them for five minutes and provide an interpretation. That expert becomes a co-author, not because of their five minutes of work but because of the decades of experience behind it.
Collaborators shouldn't need to run a bloody gauntlet and engage in hand-to-hand combat to become co-authors. If they provide a skill that contributes significantly to the paper, that should be enough.
The fact that to a seasoned programmer the work is easy doesn't have anything to do with it. As you describe it, this is work that's required for the publication. Without it, you don't have a paper. With it, you do. Therefore the programmer contributed significantly (critically) to the paper, and therefore the programmer should be an author.
The fact that it's quick and easy for a programmer simply means that programmers have spent significant time and effort learning skills that you don't have. If you consider the work trivial, then go out and learn the skills yourself, and do the work yourself. If that's too much work, then put an appropriate value on that work and offer authorship.
An example in my field is histopathology. I can take tissue slides to an expert who will look at them for five minutes and provide an interpretation. That expert becomes a co-author, not because of their five minutes of work but because of the decades of experience behind it.
Collaborators shouldn't need to run a bloody gauntlet and engage in hand-to-hand combat to become co-authors. If they provide a skill that contributes significantly to the paper, that should be enough.
answered yesterday
iayork
11.5k43243
11.5k43243
9
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
67
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
37
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
19
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
33
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 20 more comments
9
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
67
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
37
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
19
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
33
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
9
9
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
Programming and other tasks that do not provide an intellectual contribution should not be granted authorship under most guidelines. Lots of people do work on a paper that isn't credited with authorship: they take care of laboratory animals, they clean the floors, they are IT staff and library staff. Now, I don't necessarily trust the OP's description of the simplicity of the job and it could rise to the level of an intellectual contribution, and I am concerned about abuse of undergraduate labor, but authorship should not just be freely gifted either.
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
67
67
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
Programming is not cleaning the floors. You can't pull a random hobo from under a bridge to write your programs (unless you live in San Francisco, I guess). If I needed a library person to work for me "for a few days" on a specific, targeted task that was absolutely critical for publication, and that I couldn't do myself, I would absolutely offer them authorship; wouldn't you? Denying a programmer credit is an extraordinarily narrow view of "intellectual contribution", in my opinion.
– iayork
yesterday
37
37
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
* if the program is properly specified and just needs someone to "turn the crank" to implement and run it* - Then the poster could do it themselves. The mere fact that this is too hard for someone who's spent two years focusing on the field means it's not just "turning a crank". In any case this can be an agree-to-disagree situation; there are several answers that argue this is not an authorship situation, I wanted to make sure there was at least one option arguing the reverse.
– iayork
yesterday
19
19
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
I feel like this answer is saying "doing programming = authorship" - then you're not reading carefully. I've given examples from two other fields - histopathology and library staff. What I'm saying is that if someone contributes something that is (1) essential for the manuscript, (2) requires specific skills, (3) takes more than a few minutes, then it potentially justifies authorship. You can certainly find excuses to avoid giving credit to others, but you can also decide that if it's a borderline situation you can err on the side of generosity.
– iayork
yesterday
33
33
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
@BryanKrause if a person thinks that the work is so easy that requires nothing but requires only a few words "thank you X for doing computer crunching", then he can approach a seasoned programmer and pay him. Preying for a student (lower than him in an academic hierarchy) is not good.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday
|
show 20 more comments
up vote
17
down vote
I don't suppose it's unethical so long as you are clear in your expectations and proposed reward (which is effectively nothing), and the other party fully understands what they are getting into. This could easily become exploitative, however, as you are hoping to get someone to work for you while offering really nothing of value in return. If you are a professor or are some other type of authority figure over the student, I'd tread very carefully here, as you could be exerting undue influence over this person.
I notice that you plan to approach an undergraduate student about this, which could very easily be seen as preying on someone who doesn't know any better. If you have a really interesting problem that's so cool to work on that someone should be happy to do it for a simple "thank you", why not approach a true "seasoned programmer" instead of an undergraduate student? If true professionals find your proposal unpalatable, I'd say it would be unethical to try to hoodwink a less experienced person into the deal.
7
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
I don't suppose it's unethical so long as you are clear in your expectations and proposed reward (which is effectively nothing), and the other party fully understands what they are getting into. This could easily become exploitative, however, as you are hoping to get someone to work for you while offering really nothing of value in return. If you are a professor or are some other type of authority figure over the student, I'd tread very carefully here, as you could be exerting undue influence over this person.
I notice that you plan to approach an undergraduate student about this, which could very easily be seen as preying on someone who doesn't know any better. If you have a really interesting problem that's so cool to work on that someone should be happy to do it for a simple "thank you", why not approach a true "seasoned programmer" instead of an undergraduate student? If true professionals find your proposal unpalatable, I'd say it would be unethical to try to hoodwink a less experienced person into the deal.
7
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
17
down vote
up vote
17
down vote
I don't suppose it's unethical so long as you are clear in your expectations and proposed reward (which is effectively nothing), and the other party fully understands what they are getting into. This could easily become exploitative, however, as you are hoping to get someone to work for you while offering really nothing of value in return. If you are a professor or are some other type of authority figure over the student, I'd tread very carefully here, as you could be exerting undue influence over this person.
I notice that you plan to approach an undergraduate student about this, which could very easily be seen as preying on someone who doesn't know any better. If you have a really interesting problem that's so cool to work on that someone should be happy to do it for a simple "thank you", why not approach a true "seasoned programmer" instead of an undergraduate student? If true professionals find your proposal unpalatable, I'd say it would be unethical to try to hoodwink a less experienced person into the deal.
I don't suppose it's unethical so long as you are clear in your expectations and proposed reward (which is effectively nothing), and the other party fully understands what they are getting into. This could easily become exploitative, however, as you are hoping to get someone to work for you while offering really nothing of value in return. If you are a professor or are some other type of authority figure over the student, I'd tread very carefully here, as you could be exerting undue influence over this person.
I notice that you plan to approach an undergraduate student about this, which could very easily be seen as preying on someone who doesn't know any better. If you have a really interesting problem that's so cool to work on that someone should be happy to do it for a simple "thank you", why not approach a true "seasoned programmer" instead of an undergraduate student? If true professionals find your proposal unpalatable, I'd say it would be unethical to try to hoodwink a less experienced person into the deal.
answered yesterday
Nuclear Wang
1,423510
1,423510
7
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
add a comment |
7
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
7
7
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
Nicely said. If you offer to pay, it is fine. If you offer co-authorship it is fine. I would have taken either as an undergraduate programmer. If you have department approval and offer course-credit it is fine. But if you use a position of at least apparent and possibly actual authority to pressure a person that is at least apparently subordinate into it with then it is unethical and could be illegal depending on the details.
– TimothyAWiseman
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
16
down vote
Seasoned's programmer's rate would probably be $100-$1000 per day. This, assuming that your estimation is correct (dangerous assumption) means you are asking for a volunteer to provide you with $500-$5000 of free labor(assuming that the work takes 5 days).
I also find it strange that you mention time for a seasoned's programmer, but want to hire an undergrad - the difference in the time required to finish the job might differ much. And no work is "Trivial" if it requires "few days" of expert's work.
Undergrad's work might also be of lower quality because of his lack of experience - what if the program is faulty and returns wrong results? How would you know that?
Ultimately it comes down to how you arrange it - you might find someone willing to do it for free. I suggest considering potential gains (is undergrad contributing $2000 in his time not enough to become a co-author?) and threats ( what if the work takes much longer? what if the program has bugs? what if the undergrad can't do it? ).
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
3
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
1
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
16
down vote
Seasoned's programmer's rate would probably be $100-$1000 per day. This, assuming that your estimation is correct (dangerous assumption) means you are asking for a volunteer to provide you with $500-$5000 of free labor(assuming that the work takes 5 days).
I also find it strange that you mention time for a seasoned's programmer, but want to hire an undergrad - the difference in the time required to finish the job might differ much. And no work is "Trivial" if it requires "few days" of expert's work.
Undergrad's work might also be of lower quality because of his lack of experience - what if the program is faulty and returns wrong results? How would you know that?
Ultimately it comes down to how you arrange it - you might find someone willing to do it for free. I suggest considering potential gains (is undergrad contributing $2000 in his time not enough to become a co-author?) and threats ( what if the work takes much longer? what if the program has bugs? what if the undergrad can't do it? ).
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
3
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
1
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
16
down vote
up vote
16
down vote
Seasoned's programmer's rate would probably be $100-$1000 per day. This, assuming that your estimation is correct (dangerous assumption) means you are asking for a volunteer to provide you with $500-$5000 of free labor(assuming that the work takes 5 days).
I also find it strange that you mention time for a seasoned's programmer, but want to hire an undergrad - the difference in the time required to finish the job might differ much. And no work is "Trivial" if it requires "few days" of expert's work.
Undergrad's work might also be of lower quality because of his lack of experience - what if the program is faulty and returns wrong results? How would you know that?
Ultimately it comes down to how you arrange it - you might find someone willing to do it for free. I suggest considering potential gains (is undergrad contributing $2000 in his time not enough to become a co-author?) and threats ( what if the work takes much longer? what if the program has bugs? what if the undergrad can't do it? ).
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Seasoned's programmer's rate would probably be $100-$1000 per day. This, assuming that your estimation is correct (dangerous assumption) means you are asking for a volunteer to provide you with $500-$5000 of free labor(assuming that the work takes 5 days).
I also find it strange that you mention time for a seasoned's programmer, but want to hire an undergrad - the difference in the time required to finish the job might differ much. And no work is "Trivial" if it requires "few days" of expert's work.
Undergrad's work might also be of lower quality because of his lack of experience - what if the program is faulty and returns wrong results? How would you know that?
Ultimately it comes down to how you arrange it - you might find someone willing to do it for free. I suggest considering potential gains (is undergrad contributing $2000 in his time not enough to become a co-author?) and threats ( what if the work takes much longer? what if the program has bugs? what if the undergrad can't do it? ).
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited yesterday
Buzz
14k94573
14k94573
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered yesterday
MatthewRock
26115
26115
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
MatthewRock is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
3
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
1
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
add a comment |
3
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
1
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
3
3
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
It's a pretty small and elite group of programmers who make $1000 per day; conversely, $100 per day is not much above minimum wage in some places in the US. So realistically, I think that range could be a bit narrower, like $200-400 per day for an average competent professional software developer in the US.
– David Z
yesterday
1
1
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
@DavidZ I didn't want to try to account for all the different variables - experience, technology, location... I provided approximated rates so that I would have some numbres to show. Entry level software engineers at the big five earn 100k+ USD per year, that's more than 400 USD a day, and they are not experienced. Bottom line is, they are not pennies.
– MatthewRock
23 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay
"Ethically wrong"? Maybe not.
But that is the wrong question to ask
However, I feel [that] to get some backing on the theory, I need... computer data.
- You've worked on a problem for two years.
- You're going to trust "a couple days" free work from a random undergrad to prove it?
If you don't know enough to code it yourself, how do you know the code is right?
In other words (and this isn't meant as harsh or flippant) if you can't tell me how you will be able to tell the difference between these two outcomes:
- A person taking your assignment and coding something which produces the answer you expect
- A person writing a program which will prove or disprove your theory
...then you don't need the code, do you?
If it turns out you think #2 is correct, but later someone proves that #1 is what really happened... that's bad.
6
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay
"Ethically wrong"? Maybe not.
But that is the wrong question to ask
However, I feel [that] to get some backing on the theory, I need... computer data.
- You've worked on a problem for two years.
- You're going to trust "a couple days" free work from a random undergrad to prove it?
If you don't know enough to code it yourself, how do you know the code is right?
In other words (and this isn't meant as harsh or flippant) if you can't tell me how you will be able to tell the difference between these two outcomes:
- A person taking your assignment and coding something which produces the answer you expect
- A person writing a program which will prove or disprove your theory
...then you don't need the code, do you?
If it turns out you think #2 is correct, but later someone proves that #1 is what really happened... that's bad.
6
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay
"Ethically wrong"? Maybe not.
But that is the wrong question to ask
However, I feel [that] to get some backing on the theory, I need... computer data.
- You've worked on a problem for two years.
- You're going to trust "a couple days" free work from a random undergrad to prove it?
If you don't know enough to code it yourself, how do you know the code is right?
In other words (and this isn't meant as harsh or flippant) if you can't tell me how you will be able to tell the difference between these two outcomes:
- A person taking your assignment and coding something which produces the answer you expect
- A person writing a program which will prove or disprove your theory
...then you don't need the code, do you?
If it turns out you think #2 is correct, but later someone proves that #1 is what really happened... that's bad.
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay
"Ethically wrong"? Maybe not.
But that is the wrong question to ask
However, I feel [that] to get some backing on the theory, I need... computer data.
- You've worked on a problem for two years.
- You're going to trust "a couple days" free work from a random undergrad to prove it?
If you don't know enough to code it yourself, how do you know the code is right?
In other words (and this isn't meant as harsh or flippant) if you can't tell me how you will be able to tell the difference between these two outcomes:
- A person taking your assignment and coding something which produces the answer you expect
- A person writing a program which will prove or disprove your theory
...then you don't need the code, do you?
If it turns out you think #2 is correct, but later someone proves that #1 is what really happened... that's bad.
answered yesterday
J. Chris Compton
3895
3895
6
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
add a comment |
6
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
6
6
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
Anyone who thinks that they can get useful, valid work out of an short-term undergraduate is probably mistaken. Anyone who's trying to do so while shafting that person on credit and pay deserves to be mistaken.
– CJ59
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement?
Yes. Perhaps it wouldn’t be the most terrible ethical offense, but if forced to choose one of the two words “no” or “yes” to answer the question “would it be ethically wrong?”, I’d go with “yes”.
The reason why it’s wrong is that you are going against established conventions of what authorship means. You think that by offering a student some other sort of reward for doing part of the work involved in publishing a paper, whether it be an acknowledgement, a letter of recommendation, or the opportunity to add another experience to their CV, then it is okay to not list them as a coauthor. But this is wrong, for two reasons: first, there is a clear power differential at play here that makes it likely the student may be tempted to go along with your scheme even without really finding the arrangement very fair or agreeable. In other words, it’s exploitation and an abuse of authority (of a sort we hear about all too often on this site unfortunately).
Second, and perhaps even more importantly, it is not just the student you are offending against. The scientific community has an expectation to be given honest and accurate information about who contributed meaningfully to the creation of the paper. And, by current conventions at least, “several days of work by a seasoned programmer” is more than enough to be counted as a coauthor. I find the idea of you reaching a private agreement with the student to deprive the community of that information by having the student give up authorship rights quite problematic, even overlooking the separate issue of exploitation. Imagine for example if rich people started paying famous academics to collaborate on research with them, giving them a high salary with the agreement that the famous and super-talented person will give up their coauthorship rights. Is this just a private transaction between two consenting adults that doesn’t hurt anyone else? No, of course it’s much less innocent and is harmful, since it deprives the community of information it needs to function effectively, and goes against agreed-upon norms of what’s acceptable.
Now, of course, in your situation you are actually the person who will have done almost all the research, and that’s fine. The student being a coauthor doesn’t mean that they will get half the credit for something you worked on for two years. It would be completely legitimate for you to make it clear to people what each coauthor contributed in any way necessary (by writing it in the paper, or in your CV or publication list, research statement etc). You absolutely deserve to get the correct portion of credit, and there is an honest way to make that happen. But as for coauthorship, the student programmer should get it, since they will have contributed time, creative thinking and a technical skill that’s quite nontrivial (at least, nontrivial enough that you yourself don’t possess it) to the project, and those are the accepted criteria for being a coauthor.
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement?
Yes. Perhaps it wouldn’t be the most terrible ethical offense, but if forced to choose one of the two words “no” or “yes” to answer the question “would it be ethically wrong?”, I’d go with “yes”.
The reason why it’s wrong is that you are going against established conventions of what authorship means. You think that by offering a student some other sort of reward for doing part of the work involved in publishing a paper, whether it be an acknowledgement, a letter of recommendation, or the opportunity to add another experience to their CV, then it is okay to not list them as a coauthor. But this is wrong, for two reasons: first, there is a clear power differential at play here that makes it likely the student may be tempted to go along with your scheme even without really finding the arrangement very fair or agreeable. In other words, it’s exploitation and an abuse of authority (of a sort we hear about all too often on this site unfortunately).
Second, and perhaps even more importantly, it is not just the student you are offending against. The scientific community has an expectation to be given honest and accurate information about who contributed meaningfully to the creation of the paper. And, by current conventions at least, “several days of work by a seasoned programmer” is more than enough to be counted as a coauthor. I find the idea of you reaching a private agreement with the student to deprive the community of that information by having the student give up authorship rights quite problematic, even overlooking the separate issue of exploitation. Imagine for example if rich people started paying famous academics to collaborate on research with them, giving them a high salary with the agreement that the famous and super-talented person will give up their coauthorship rights. Is this just a private transaction between two consenting adults that doesn’t hurt anyone else? No, of course it’s much less innocent and is harmful, since it deprives the community of information it needs to function effectively, and goes against agreed-upon norms of what’s acceptable.
Now, of course, in your situation you are actually the person who will have done almost all the research, and that’s fine. The student being a coauthor doesn’t mean that they will get half the credit for something you worked on for two years. It would be completely legitimate for you to make it clear to people what each coauthor contributed in any way necessary (by writing it in the paper, or in your CV or publication list, research statement etc). You absolutely deserve to get the correct portion of credit, and there is an honest way to make that happen. But as for coauthorship, the student programmer should get it, since they will have contributed time, creative thinking and a technical skill that’s quite nontrivial (at least, nontrivial enough that you yourself don’t possess it) to the project, and those are the accepted criteria for being a coauthor.
add a comment |
up vote
8
down vote
up vote
8
down vote
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement?
Yes. Perhaps it wouldn’t be the most terrible ethical offense, but if forced to choose one of the two words “no” or “yes” to answer the question “would it be ethically wrong?”, I’d go with “yes”.
The reason why it’s wrong is that you are going against established conventions of what authorship means. You think that by offering a student some other sort of reward for doing part of the work involved in publishing a paper, whether it be an acknowledgement, a letter of recommendation, or the opportunity to add another experience to their CV, then it is okay to not list them as a coauthor. But this is wrong, for two reasons: first, there is a clear power differential at play here that makes it likely the student may be tempted to go along with your scheme even without really finding the arrangement very fair or agreeable. In other words, it’s exploitation and an abuse of authority (of a sort we hear about all too often on this site unfortunately).
Second, and perhaps even more importantly, it is not just the student you are offending against. The scientific community has an expectation to be given honest and accurate information about who contributed meaningfully to the creation of the paper. And, by current conventions at least, “several days of work by a seasoned programmer” is more than enough to be counted as a coauthor. I find the idea of you reaching a private agreement with the student to deprive the community of that information by having the student give up authorship rights quite problematic, even overlooking the separate issue of exploitation. Imagine for example if rich people started paying famous academics to collaborate on research with them, giving them a high salary with the agreement that the famous and super-talented person will give up their coauthorship rights. Is this just a private transaction between two consenting adults that doesn’t hurt anyone else? No, of course it’s much less innocent and is harmful, since it deprives the community of information it needs to function effectively, and goes against agreed-upon norms of what’s acceptable.
Now, of course, in your situation you are actually the person who will have done almost all the research, and that’s fine. The student being a coauthor doesn’t mean that they will get half the credit for something you worked on for two years. It would be completely legitimate for you to make it clear to people what each coauthor contributed in any way necessary (by writing it in the paper, or in your CV or publication list, research statement etc). You absolutely deserve to get the correct portion of credit, and there is an honest way to make that happen. But as for coauthorship, the student programmer should get it, since they will have contributed time, creative thinking and a technical skill that’s quite nontrivial (at least, nontrivial enough that you yourself don’t possess it) to the project, and those are the accepted criteria for being a coauthor.
Would it be ethically wrong to recruit an undergrad for a few days volunteer work without pay to get the computer crunching part done and not mention him as a coauthor and only mention as acknowledgement?
Yes. Perhaps it wouldn’t be the most terrible ethical offense, but if forced to choose one of the two words “no” or “yes” to answer the question “would it be ethically wrong?”, I’d go with “yes”.
The reason why it’s wrong is that you are going against established conventions of what authorship means. You think that by offering a student some other sort of reward for doing part of the work involved in publishing a paper, whether it be an acknowledgement, a letter of recommendation, or the opportunity to add another experience to their CV, then it is okay to not list them as a coauthor. But this is wrong, for two reasons: first, there is a clear power differential at play here that makes it likely the student may be tempted to go along with your scheme even without really finding the arrangement very fair or agreeable. In other words, it’s exploitation and an abuse of authority (of a sort we hear about all too often on this site unfortunately).
Second, and perhaps even more importantly, it is not just the student you are offending against. The scientific community has an expectation to be given honest and accurate information about who contributed meaningfully to the creation of the paper. And, by current conventions at least, “several days of work by a seasoned programmer” is more than enough to be counted as a coauthor. I find the idea of you reaching a private agreement with the student to deprive the community of that information by having the student give up authorship rights quite problematic, even overlooking the separate issue of exploitation. Imagine for example if rich people started paying famous academics to collaborate on research with them, giving them a high salary with the agreement that the famous and super-talented person will give up their coauthorship rights. Is this just a private transaction between two consenting adults that doesn’t hurt anyone else? No, of course it’s much less innocent and is harmful, since it deprives the community of information it needs to function effectively, and goes against agreed-upon norms of what’s acceptable.
Now, of course, in your situation you are actually the person who will have done almost all the research, and that’s fine. The student being a coauthor doesn’t mean that they will get half the credit for something you worked on for two years. It would be completely legitimate for you to make it clear to people what each coauthor contributed in any way necessary (by writing it in the paper, or in your CV or publication list, research statement etc). You absolutely deserve to get the correct portion of credit, and there is an honest way to make that happen. But as for coauthorship, the student programmer should get it, since they will have contributed time, creative thinking and a technical skill that’s quite nontrivial (at least, nontrivial enough that you yourself don’t possess it) to the project, and those are the accepted criteria for being a coauthor.
answered 20 hours ago
Dan Romik
82.1k21178274
82.1k21178274
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
I don't think is unethical if you provide something of value of exchange to the prospective student. Will he gain an understanding of some theory that he/she's interested in as part of the engagement? Be upfront at what you're offering to your prospective collaborator.
If you just want a free coder then yes this is unethical. This is pure and simple exploitation, and abuse of power from your side. Would you like to be on the other side of this exchange?
ps. Check the regulations of your institution!
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
I don't think is unethical if you provide something of value of exchange to the prospective student. Will he gain an understanding of some theory that he/she's interested in as part of the engagement? Be upfront at what you're offering to your prospective collaborator.
If you just want a free coder then yes this is unethical. This is pure and simple exploitation, and abuse of power from your side. Would you like to be on the other side of this exchange?
ps. Check the regulations of your institution!
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
I don't think is unethical if you provide something of value of exchange to the prospective student. Will he gain an understanding of some theory that he/she's interested in as part of the engagement? Be upfront at what you're offering to your prospective collaborator.
If you just want a free coder then yes this is unethical. This is pure and simple exploitation, and abuse of power from your side. Would you like to be on the other side of this exchange?
ps. Check the regulations of your institution!
I don't think is unethical if you provide something of value of exchange to the prospective student. Will he gain an understanding of some theory that he/she's interested in as part of the engagement? Be upfront at what you're offering to your prospective collaborator.
If you just want a free coder then yes this is unethical. This is pure and simple exploitation, and abuse of power from your side. Would you like to be on the other side of this exchange?
ps. Check the regulations of your institution!
answered yesterday
Koenig Lear
1626
1626
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Rather than proposing this to an individual, which should be interpreted as coercive since there is a power imbalance, you could publish a call for help, describing what you need and what you offer. Be clear that it is only an ack on offer, not authorship, and no money is involved. Ask for people to apply. You can choose among those who offer to help. Some probably will, but if not, you should consider something more substantial.
If there is a learning component, you could describe that in your "call" as well. It might make it more interesting, even though there is no academic credit involved.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Rather than proposing this to an individual, which should be interpreted as coercive since there is a power imbalance, you could publish a call for help, describing what you need and what you offer. Be clear that it is only an ack on offer, not authorship, and no money is involved. Ask for people to apply. You can choose among those who offer to help. Some probably will, but if not, you should consider something more substantial.
If there is a learning component, you could describe that in your "call" as well. It might make it more interesting, even though there is no academic credit involved.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Rather than proposing this to an individual, which should be interpreted as coercive since there is a power imbalance, you could publish a call for help, describing what you need and what you offer. Be clear that it is only an ack on offer, not authorship, and no money is involved. Ask for people to apply. You can choose among those who offer to help. Some probably will, but if not, you should consider something more substantial.
If there is a learning component, you could describe that in your "call" as well. It might make it more interesting, even though there is no academic credit involved.
Rather than proposing this to an individual, which should be interpreted as coercive since there is a power imbalance, you could publish a call for help, describing what you need and what you offer. Be clear that it is only an ack on offer, not authorship, and no money is involved. Ask for people to apply. You can choose among those who offer to help. Some probably will, but if not, you should consider something more substantial.
If there is a learning component, you could describe that in your "call" as well. It might make it more interesting, even though there is no academic credit involved.
answered yesterday
Buffy
32.5k6100167
32.5k6100167
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Is the output of the computer program going to be included in the paper? If so, that output has an author, and that author deserves credit. But who is the author? Is it the computer? Is it the program? Or is it the programmer? I think it's the programmer.
If the output has no intellectual merit, why does it add value to the paper? Would including the program input instead of the output serve the reader equally?
Contrary to popular belief, programming is intellectual activity. It deserves respect.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Is the output of the computer program going to be included in the paper? If so, that output has an author, and that author deserves credit. But who is the author? Is it the computer? Is it the program? Or is it the programmer? I think it's the programmer.
If the output has no intellectual merit, why does it add value to the paper? Would including the program input instead of the output serve the reader equally?
Contrary to popular belief, programming is intellectual activity. It deserves respect.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Is the output of the computer program going to be included in the paper? If so, that output has an author, and that author deserves credit. But who is the author? Is it the computer? Is it the program? Or is it the programmer? I think it's the programmer.
If the output has no intellectual merit, why does it add value to the paper? Would including the program input instead of the output serve the reader equally?
Contrary to popular belief, programming is intellectual activity. It deserves respect.
Is the output of the computer program going to be included in the paper? If so, that output has an author, and that author deserves credit. But who is the author? Is it the computer? Is it the program? Or is it the programmer? I think it's the programmer.
If the output has no intellectual merit, why does it add value to the paper? Would including the program input instead of the output serve the reader equally?
Contrary to popular belief, programming is intellectual activity. It deserves respect.
answered 1 hour ago
Walter Mitty
1454
1454
add a comment |
add a comment |
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18
How do you know it's only a few days work? What are the limits on you implementing this yourself?
– Bryan Krause
yesterday
18
Why don't you want to credit them? Given that you need this and they provided a significant contribution they deserve to be coauthors.
– Bakuriu
yesterday
32
Why would an undergrad volunteer to do something for you for literally no benefit for themself? And second, are you really sure that they'd turn out good enough work that you could trust it without spending an equally long chunk of time verifying it yourself?
– Azor Ahai
yesterday
18
Why not add them as an author? What's your reason for not wanting to do so in the first place?
– Konrad Rudolph
yesterday
26
In the area where I live, the seasoned programmer earns ~ 100$ per hour. In addition to this I have noticed that people do not become seasoned programmers out of a sudden, it takes years of work to become a seasoned programmer.
– Salvador Dali
yesterday