When does $Vert AB Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert$?











up vote
3
down vote

favorite
1












Motivation



If $a$ and $b$ are vector, then thinking simply vector 2 norm, $Vert a cdot bVert = Vert bVert Vert aVert cos(a,b) $, we know the difference is simply a ratio between the angle of $a$ and $b$.



More generally, in a Hilbert space, Cauchy inequality holds so
$$|langle a,brangle|^2 le langle a,aranglelangle b,brangle$$
and we know the only when a, b are parallel, the equality is achieved.



Question



Given two square matrix $A$ and $B$,

when does this happen?
$$Vert AB Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert$$



Let's simply assume matrix 2-norm, so $Vert cdot Vert = Vert cdot Vert_2$.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • What is the 2-norm? The answer will change depending on the norm.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:23










  • 2-norm is just matrix 2-norm or you can say it is an induced norm from the l2 normed vector space. It is the norm from operator sense, treating matrix as an operator.
    – ArtificiallyIntelligence
    Nov 15 at 23:24










  • It looks to me you have your definitions missmatched. Check again, you are around a solution, it looks like.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:26










  • Thank you for posting this question! It saved me from a bad mistake in an answer, where I had written (unnecessarily) $|BC| = |B||C|$, instead of $|BC| leqslant |B||C|$.
    – Calum Gilhooley
    Nov 16 at 1:00















up vote
3
down vote

favorite
1












Motivation



If $a$ and $b$ are vector, then thinking simply vector 2 norm, $Vert a cdot bVert = Vert bVert Vert aVert cos(a,b) $, we know the difference is simply a ratio between the angle of $a$ and $b$.



More generally, in a Hilbert space, Cauchy inequality holds so
$$|langle a,brangle|^2 le langle a,aranglelangle b,brangle$$
and we know the only when a, b are parallel, the equality is achieved.



Question



Given two square matrix $A$ and $B$,

when does this happen?
$$Vert AB Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert$$



Let's simply assume matrix 2-norm, so $Vert cdot Vert = Vert cdot Vert_2$.










share|cite|improve this question






















  • What is the 2-norm? The answer will change depending on the norm.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:23










  • 2-norm is just matrix 2-norm or you can say it is an induced norm from the l2 normed vector space. It is the norm from operator sense, treating matrix as an operator.
    – ArtificiallyIntelligence
    Nov 15 at 23:24










  • It looks to me you have your definitions missmatched. Check again, you are around a solution, it looks like.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:26










  • Thank you for posting this question! It saved me from a bad mistake in an answer, where I had written (unnecessarily) $|BC| = |B||C|$, instead of $|BC| leqslant |B||C|$.
    – Calum Gilhooley
    Nov 16 at 1:00













up vote
3
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
3
down vote

favorite
1






1





Motivation



If $a$ and $b$ are vector, then thinking simply vector 2 norm, $Vert a cdot bVert = Vert bVert Vert aVert cos(a,b) $, we know the difference is simply a ratio between the angle of $a$ and $b$.



More generally, in a Hilbert space, Cauchy inequality holds so
$$|langle a,brangle|^2 le langle a,aranglelangle b,brangle$$
and we know the only when a, b are parallel, the equality is achieved.



Question



Given two square matrix $A$ and $B$,

when does this happen?
$$Vert AB Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert$$



Let's simply assume matrix 2-norm, so $Vert cdot Vert = Vert cdot Vert_2$.










share|cite|improve this question













Motivation



If $a$ and $b$ are vector, then thinking simply vector 2 norm, $Vert a cdot bVert = Vert bVert Vert aVert cos(a,b) $, we know the difference is simply a ratio between the angle of $a$ and $b$.



More generally, in a Hilbert space, Cauchy inequality holds so
$$|langle a,brangle|^2 le langle a,aranglelangle b,brangle$$
and we know the only when a, b are parallel, the equality is achieved.



Question



Given two square matrix $A$ and $B$,

when does this happen?
$$Vert AB Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert$$



Let's simply assume matrix 2-norm, so $Vert cdot Vert = Vert cdot Vert_2$.







matrices inequality norm matrix-norms






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Nov 15 at 23:11









ArtificiallyIntelligence

250110




250110












  • What is the 2-norm? The answer will change depending on the norm.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:23










  • 2-norm is just matrix 2-norm or you can say it is an induced norm from the l2 normed vector space. It is the norm from operator sense, treating matrix as an operator.
    – ArtificiallyIntelligence
    Nov 15 at 23:24










  • It looks to me you have your definitions missmatched. Check again, you are around a solution, it looks like.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:26










  • Thank you for posting this question! It saved me from a bad mistake in an answer, where I had written (unnecessarily) $|BC| = |B||C|$, instead of $|BC| leqslant |B||C|$.
    – Calum Gilhooley
    Nov 16 at 1:00


















  • What is the 2-norm? The answer will change depending on the norm.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:23










  • 2-norm is just matrix 2-norm or you can say it is an induced norm from the l2 normed vector space. It is the norm from operator sense, treating matrix as an operator.
    – ArtificiallyIntelligence
    Nov 15 at 23:24










  • It looks to me you have your definitions missmatched. Check again, you are around a solution, it looks like.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:26










  • Thank you for posting this question! It saved me from a bad mistake in an answer, where I had written (unnecessarily) $|BC| = |B||C|$, instead of $|BC| leqslant |B||C|$.
    – Calum Gilhooley
    Nov 16 at 1:00
















What is the 2-norm? The answer will change depending on the norm.
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:23




What is the 2-norm? The answer will change depending on the norm.
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:23












2-norm is just matrix 2-norm or you can say it is an induced norm from the l2 normed vector space. It is the norm from operator sense, treating matrix as an operator.
– ArtificiallyIntelligence
Nov 15 at 23:24




2-norm is just matrix 2-norm or you can say it is an induced norm from the l2 normed vector space. It is the norm from operator sense, treating matrix as an operator.
– ArtificiallyIntelligence
Nov 15 at 23:24












It looks to me you have your definitions missmatched. Check again, you are around a solution, it looks like.
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:26




It looks to me you have your definitions missmatched. Check again, you are around a solution, it looks like.
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:26












Thank you for posting this question! It saved me from a bad mistake in an answer, where I had written (unnecessarily) $|BC| = |B||C|$, instead of $|BC| leqslant |B||C|$.
– Calum Gilhooley
Nov 16 at 1:00




Thank you for posting this question! It saved me from a bad mistake in an answer, where I had written (unnecessarily) $|BC| = |B||C|$, instead of $|BC| leqslant |B||C|$.
– Calum Gilhooley
Nov 16 at 1:00










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
0
down vote



accepted










So given $Vert x Vert =1$, $$Vert AB x Vert le Vert A Vert Vert Bx Vert,$$ the equality holds when $Bx$ hit on the direction of first right singular vector of $A$.



Then
$$Vert Bx Vert le Vert B Vert Vert x Vert$$ the equality holds when $x$ hit the first right singular vector of $B$. However, now the $Bx$ aligned with first left singular vector of $B$ and it must match the first right singular vector of $A$.



Note that $$Vert A B xVert le Vert A Vert Vert BVert Vert x Vert$$



When both equality conditions are holds, that is to say,




the largest left singular vector of $B$ is parallel to the largest right singular vector of $A$




we have
$$
Vert A BVert = sup Vert AB xVert/Vert x Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert
$$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22










  • Oh, you are OP.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














 

draft saved


draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3000466%2fwhen-does-vert-ab-vert-vert-a-vert-vert-b-vert%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
0
down vote



accepted










So given $Vert x Vert =1$, $$Vert AB x Vert le Vert A Vert Vert Bx Vert,$$ the equality holds when $Bx$ hit on the direction of first right singular vector of $A$.



Then
$$Vert Bx Vert le Vert B Vert Vert x Vert$$ the equality holds when $x$ hit the first right singular vector of $B$. However, now the $Bx$ aligned with first left singular vector of $B$ and it must match the first right singular vector of $A$.



Note that $$Vert A B xVert le Vert A Vert Vert BVert Vert x Vert$$



When both equality conditions are holds, that is to say,




the largest left singular vector of $B$ is parallel to the largest right singular vector of $A$




we have
$$
Vert A BVert = sup Vert AB xVert/Vert x Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert
$$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22










  • Oh, you are OP.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22















up vote
0
down vote



accepted










So given $Vert x Vert =1$, $$Vert AB x Vert le Vert A Vert Vert Bx Vert,$$ the equality holds when $Bx$ hit on the direction of first right singular vector of $A$.



Then
$$Vert Bx Vert le Vert B Vert Vert x Vert$$ the equality holds when $x$ hit the first right singular vector of $B$. However, now the $Bx$ aligned with first left singular vector of $B$ and it must match the first right singular vector of $A$.



Note that $$Vert A B xVert le Vert A Vert Vert BVert Vert x Vert$$



When both equality conditions are holds, that is to say,




the largest left singular vector of $B$ is parallel to the largest right singular vector of $A$




we have
$$
Vert A BVert = sup Vert AB xVert/Vert x Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert
$$






share|cite|improve this answer























  • OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22










  • Oh, you are OP.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22













up vote
0
down vote



accepted







up vote
0
down vote



accepted






So given $Vert x Vert =1$, $$Vert AB x Vert le Vert A Vert Vert Bx Vert,$$ the equality holds when $Bx$ hit on the direction of first right singular vector of $A$.



Then
$$Vert Bx Vert le Vert B Vert Vert x Vert$$ the equality holds when $x$ hit the first right singular vector of $B$. However, now the $Bx$ aligned with first left singular vector of $B$ and it must match the first right singular vector of $A$.



Note that $$Vert A B xVert le Vert A Vert Vert BVert Vert x Vert$$



When both equality conditions are holds, that is to say,




the largest left singular vector of $B$ is parallel to the largest right singular vector of $A$




we have
$$
Vert A BVert = sup Vert AB xVert/Vert x Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert
$$






share|cite|improve this answer














So given $Vert x Vert =1$, $$Vert AB x Vert le Vert A Vert Vert Bx Vert,$$ the equality holds when $Bx$ hit on the direction of first right singular vector of $A$.



Then
$$Vert Bx Vert le Vert B Vert Vert x Vert$$ the equality holds when $x$ hit the first right singular vector of $B$. However, now the $Bx$ aligned with first left singular vector of $B$ and it must match the first right singular vector of $A$.



Note that $$Vert A B xVert le Vert A Vert Vert BVert Vert x Vert$$



When both equality conditions are holds, that is to say,




the largest left singular vector of $B$ is parallel to the largest right singular vector of $A$




we have
$$
Vert A BVert = sup Vert AB xVert/Vert x Vert = Vert A Vert Vert B Vert
$$







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 16 at 5:47

























answered Nov 15 at 23:19









ArtificiallyIntelligence

250110




250110












  • OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22










  • Oh, you are OP.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22


















  • OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22










  • Oh, you are OP.
    – Will M.
    Nov 15 at 23:22
















OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:22




OP is using 2-norm. I think that signifies $|A| = left( sumlimits_{p,q} A(p,q)^2 right)^{frac{1}{2}}.$
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:22












Oh, you are OP.
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:22




Oh, you are OP.
– Will M.
Nov 15 at 23:22


















 

draft saved


draft discarded



















































 


draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3000466%2fwhen-does-vert-ab-vert-vert-a-vert-vert-b-vert%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Mont Emei

Province de Neuquén

Journaliste