Meaning of “is at two removes”












1















In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?




is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.



This passage is from a book named: On literature



This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.



Correct me if I am wrong.










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  • 3




    Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
    – Jason Bassford
    11 hours ago
















1















In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?




is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.



This passage is from a book named: On literature



This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.



Correct me if I am wrong.










share|improve this question




















  • 3




    Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
    – Jason Bassford
    11 hours ago














1












1








1








In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?




is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.



This passage is from a book named: On literature



This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.



Correct me if I am wrong.










share|improve this question
















In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?




is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.



This passage is from a book named: On literature



This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.



Correct me if I am wrong.







phrase-meaning sentence-meaning






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago

























asked 12 hours ago









Viser Hashemi

1938




1938








  • 3




    Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
    – Jason Bassford
    11 hours ago














  • 3




    Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
    – Jason Bassford
    11 hours ago








3




3




Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
11 hours ago




Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
11 hours ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















7














Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.






share|improve this answer





















  • Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
    – Viser Hashemi
    11 hours ago






  • 5




    It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
    – Colin Fine
    11 hours ago










  • The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
    – K.A
    5 hours ago










  • @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
    – Colin Fine
    5 hours ago










  • @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
    – K.A
    3 hours ago



















2














Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.



Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.



Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:




"A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."




The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".






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    2 Answers
    2






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    oldest

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    2 Answers
    2






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes









    7














    Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.






    share|improve this answer





















    • Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
      – Viser Hashemi
      11 hours ago






    • 5




      It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
      – Colin Fine
      11 hours ago










    • The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
      – K.A
      5 hours ago










    • @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
      – Colin Fine
      5 hours ago










    • @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
      – K.A
      3 hours ago
















    7














    Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.






    share|improve this answer





















    • Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
      – Viser Hashemi
      11 hours ago






    • 5




      It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
      – Colin Fine
      11 hours ago










    • The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
      – K.A
      5 hours ago










    • @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
      – Colin Fine
      5 hours ago










    • @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
      – K.A
      3 hours ago














    7












    7








    7






    Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.






    share|improve this answer












    Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 12 hours ago









    Colin Fine

    28.3k24155




    28.3k24155












    • Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
      – Viser Hashemi
      11 hours ago






    • 5




      It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
      – Colin Fine
      11 hours ago










    • The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
      – K.A
      5 hours ago










    • @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
      – Colin Fine
      5 hours ago










    • @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
      – K.A
      3 hours ago


















    • Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
      – Viser Hashemi
      11 hours ago






    • 5




      It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
      – Colin Fine
      11 hours ago










    • The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
      – K.A
      5 hours ago










    • @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
      – Colin Fine
      5 hours ago










    • @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
      – K.A
      3 hours ago
















    Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
    – Viser Hashemi
    11 hours ago




    Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
    – Viser Hashemi
    11 hours ago




    5




    5




    It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
    – Colin Fine
    11 hours ago




    It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
    – Colin Fine
    11 hours ago












    The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
    – K.A
    5 hours ago




    The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
    – K.A
    5 hours ago












    @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
    – Colin Fine
    5 hours ago




    @K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
    – Colin Fine
    5 hours ago












    @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
    – K.A
    3 hours ago




    @ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
    – K.A
    3 hours ago













    2














    Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.



    Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.



    Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:




    "A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."




    The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".






    share|improve this answer




























      2














      Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.



      Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.



      Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:




      "A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."




      The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".






      share|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2






        Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.



        Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.



        Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:




        "A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."




        The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".






        share|improve this answer














        Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.



        Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.



        Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:




        "A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."




        The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".







        share|improve this answer














        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer








        edited 11 hours ago

























        answered 11 hours ago









        Tᴚoɯɐuo

        108k682174




        108k682174






























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