Is $f$ that satisfies $int_a^bf(x)dx=int_a^bxf(x)dx=int_a^bx^2f(x)dx=0$ a constant?











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My question is:



Define $fin C^{0}[a,b]$ satisfying $int_a^bf(x)dx=int_a^bxf(x)dx=int_a^bx^2f(x)dx=0$. Must this function be a constant function?



I made a easy analysis, which can prove that $f$ has at least three points, as follows




we have $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$ , in which $g(x)=mx^2+nx+p$. $forall m,n,p in mathbb{R}$



If $f$ has less than three zero points, we can select appropriate $m$,$n$,$p$ satisfying $g(x)f(x)>0$ for all $x$ which is not the zero point of $f$. And it's contradictory to $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$. Thus $f$ must have at least three zero points.




So can we make a further analysis that indicates $f$ is a constant function?
Any ideas would be highly appreciated!










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  • 1




    I think you can find non-zero cubic polynomials.
    – Arthur
    Nov 21 at 15:12






  • 1




    Look up orthogonal polynomials. As Arthur promised, there will be a non-trivial cubic $f(x)$ satisfying all these constraints. And if you add the requirement $int_a^bx^3f(x),dx=0$ then you are guaranteed to find a non-trivial quartic. Et cetera.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Nov 21 at 15:19






  • 2




    Only if you add $int_a^b x^n f(x){rm }dx = 0$ for all $ninmathbb{N}$ can you guarantee that $f(x) equiv 0$ (this follows from Weierstrass approximation theorem).
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:26






  • 1




    All explicit examples below are of polynomials, but note that there are also non-polynomial examples like $f(x) = sin left(frac{2 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)-2 sin left(frac{4 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:36








  • 2




    @HenningMakholm Yes, it's a very standard argument. See e.g. If $int_0^1 f(x)x^n dx=0$ for every $n$, then $f=0$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:47















up vote
1
down vote

favorite












My question is:



Define $fin C^{0}[a,b]$ satisfying $int_a^bf(x)dx=int_a^bxf(x)dx=int_a^bx^2f(x)dx=0$. Must this function be a constant function?



I made a easy analysis, which can prove that $f$ has at least three points, as follows




we have $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$ , in which $g(x)=mx^2+nx+p$. $forall m,n,p in mathbb{R}$



If $f$ has less than three zero points, we can select appropriate $m$,$n$,$p$ satisfying $g(x)f(x)>0$ for all $x$ which is not the zero point of $f$. And it's contradictory to $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$. Thus $f$ must have at least three zero points.




So can we make a further analysis that indicates $f$ is a constant function?
Any ideas would be highly appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    I think you can find non-zero cubic polynomials.
    – Arthur
    Nov 21 at 15:12






  • 1




    Look up orthogonal polynomials. As Arthur promised, there will be a non-trivial cubic $f(x)$ satisfying all these constraints. And if you add the requirement $int_a^bx^3f(x),dx=0$ then you are guaranteed to find a non-trivial quartic. Et cetera.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Nov 21 at 15:19






  • 2




    Only if you add $int_a^b x^n f(x){rm }dx = 0$ for all $ninmathbb{N}$ can you guarantee that $f(x) equiv 0$ (this follows from Weierstrass approximation theorem).
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:26






  • 1




    All explicit examples below are of polynomials, but note that there are also non-polynomial examples like $f(x) = sin left(frac{2 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)-2 sin left(frac{4 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:36








  • 2




    @HenningMakholm Yes, it's a very standard argument. See e.g. If $int_0^1 f(x)x^n dx=0$ for every $n$, then $f=0$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:47













up vote
1
down vote

favorite









up vote
1
down vote

favorite











My question is:



Define $fin C^{0}[a,b]$ satisfying $int_a^bf(x)dx=int_a^bxf(x)dx=int_a^bx^2f(x)dx=0$. Must this function be a constant function?



I made a easy analysis, which can prove that $f$ has at least three points, as follows




we have $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$ , in which $g(x)=mx^2+nx+p$. $forall m,n,p in mathbb{R}$



If $f$ has less than three zero points, we can select appropriate $m$,$n$,$p$ satisfying $g(x)f(x)>0$ for all $x$ which is not the zero point of $f$. And it's contradictory to $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$. Thus $f$ must have at least three zero points.




So can we make a further analysis that indicates $f$ is a constant function?
Any ideas would be highly appreciated!










share|cite|improve this question















My question is:



Define $fin C^{0}[a,b]$ satisfying $int_a^bf(x)dx=int_a^bxf(x)dx=int_a^bx^2f(x)dx=0$. Must this function be a constant function?



I made a easy analysis, which can prove that $f$ has at least three points, as follows




we have $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$ , in which $g(x)=mx^2+nx+p$. $forall m,n,p in mathbb{R}$



If $f$ has less than three zero points, we can select appropriate $m$,$n$,$p$ satisfying $g(x)f(x)>0$ for all $x$ which is not the zero point of $f$. And it's contradictory to $int_{a}^{b}g(x)fleft(xright)dx=0$. Thus $f$ must have at least three zero points.




So can we make a further analysis that indicates $f$ is a constant function?
Any ideas would be highly appreciated!







real-analysis definite-integrals






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edited Nov 21 at 15:12

























asked Nov 21 at 15:11









Zero

1438




1438








  • 1




    I think you can find non-zero cubic polynomials.
    – Arthur
    Nov 21 at 15:12






  • 1




    Look up orthogonal polynomials. As Arthur promised, there will be a non-trivial cubic $f(x)$ satisfying all these constraints. And if you add the requirement $int_a^bx^3f(x),dx=0$ then you are guaranteed to find a non-trivial quartic. Et cetera.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Nov 21 at 15:19






  • 2




    Only if you add $int_a^b x^n f(x){rm }dx = 0$ for all $ninmathbb{N}$ can you guarantee that $f(x) equiv 0$ (this follows from Weierstrass approximation theorem).
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:26






  • 1




    All explicit examples below are of polynomials, but note that there are also non-polynomial examples like $f(x) = sin left(frac{2 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)-2 sin left(frac{4 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:36








  • 2




    @HenningMakholm Yes, it's a very standard argument. See e.g. If $int_0^1 f(x)x^n dx=0$ for every $n$, then $f=0$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:47














  • 1




    I think you can find non-zero cubic polynomials.
    – Arthur
    Nov 21 at 15:12






  • 1




    Look up orthogonal polynomials. As Arthur promised, there will be a non-trivial cubic $f(x)$ satisfying all these constraints. And if you add the requirement $int_a^bx^3f(x),dx=0$ then you are guaranteed to find a non-trivial quartic. Et cetera.
    – Jyrki Lahtonen
    Nov 21 at 15:19






  • 2




    Only if you add $int_a^b x^n f(x){rm }dx = 0$ for all $ninmathbb{N}$ can you guarantee that $f(x) equiv 0$ (this follows from Weierstrass approximation theorem).
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:26






  • 1




    All explicit examples below are of polynomials, but note that there are also non-polynomial examples like $f(x) = sin left(frac{2 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)-2 sin left(frac{4 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:36








  • 2




    @HenningMakholm Yes, it's a very standard argument. See e.g. If $int_0^1 f(x)x^n dx=0$ for every $n$, then $f=0$.
    – Winther
    Nov 21 at 15:47








1




1




I think you can find non-zero cubic polynomials.
– Arthur
Nov 21 at 15:12




I think you can find non-zero cubic polynomials.
– Arthur
Nov 21 at 15:12




1




1




Look up orthogonal polynomials. As Arthur promised, there will be a non-trivial cubic $f(x)$ satisfying all these constraints. And if you add the requirement $int_a^bx^3f(x),dx=0$ then you are guaranteed to find a non-trivial quartic. Et cetera.
– Jyrki Lahtonen
Nov 21 at 15:19




Look up orthogonal polynomials. As Arthur promised, there will be a non-trivial cubic $f(x)$ satisfying all these constraints. And if you add the requirement $int_a^bx^3f(x),dx=0$ then you are guaranteed to find a non-trivial quartic. Et cetera.
– Jyrki Lahtonen
Nov 21 at 15:19




2




2




Only if you add $int_a^b x^n f(x){rm }dx = 0$ for all $ninmathbb{N}$ can you guarantee that $f(x) equiv 0$ (this follows from Weierstrass approximation theorem).
– Winther
Nov 21 at 15:26




Only if you add $int_a^b x^n f(x){rm }dx = 0$ for all $ninmathbb{N}$ can you guarantee that $f(x) equiv 0$ (this follows from Weierstrass approximation theorem).
– Winther
Nov 21 at 15:26




1




1




All explicit examples below are of polynomials, but note that there are also non-polynomial examples like $f(x) = sin left(frac{2 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)-2 sin left(frac{4 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)$.
– Winther
Nov 21 at 15:36






All explicit examples below are of polynomials, but note that there are also non-polynomial examples like $f(x) = sin left(frac{2 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)-2 sin left(frac{4 pi (x-a)}{b-a}right)$.
– Winther
Nov 21 at 15:36






2




2




@HenningMakholm Yes, it's a very standard argument. See e.g. If $int_0^1 f(x)x^n dx=0$ for every $n$, then $f=0$.
– Winther
Nov 21 at 15:47




@HenningMakholm Yes, it's a very standard argument. See e.g. If $int_0^1 f(x)x^n dx=0$ for every $n$, then $f=0$.
– Winther
Nov 21 at 15:47










4 Answers
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up vote
3
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accepted










The constraints on $f$ only mean that $f$ is orthogonal to the vector space of polynomials of degree less than 2. But there do exist loads of functions who are not constants and satisfy this conditions.



Take a look at the Gram Schmidt orthonormalisation procedure and try to find a polynomial (for example of degree 3) orthogonal to the polynomials $1$, $x$ and $x^2$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
    – Richard Martin
    Nov 21 at 15:21


















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2
down vote













$f$ is not necessarily constant. To see this, note that the vector space $C^0[a,b]$ has infinite dimension, and
$$ f mapsto left (int_a^b f(x)dx, int_a^b x f(x)dx, int_a^b x^2 f(x)dxright) $$
is a linear transformation $C^0[a,b] to mathbb R^3$. Since the domain has larger dimension than the codomain, the kernel of the transformation (that is, the set of all functions for which all three integrals are zero) must be nontrivial.



(So there's a qualifying $f$ that is not the zero function, which means that it is not constant, because the first integral for a nonzero constant function would not be $0$).






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    up vote
    1
    down vote













    No. WLOG $a=-1$ and $b=1$ (otherwise rescale). Then let $f$ be a Legendre polynomial of degree $ge 3$.






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      To construct a counter-example, take $[a,b]=[0,1]$ and consider a cubic polynomial
      $$f(x)=x^3+cx^2+dx+e$$



      Then:
      $$int_0^1 f(x)dx=frac14+frac{c}{3}+frac{d}{2}+e=0$$
      $$int_0^1 xf(x)dx=frac15+frac{c}{4}+frac{d}{3}+frac{e}{2}=0$$
      $$int_0^1 x^2f(x)dx=frac16+frac{c}{5}+frac{d}{4}+frac{e}{3}=0$$
      We have three equations in three unknowns, so we can hope for a solution. And indeed if we do the algebra (or have Wolfram Alpha do it for us), we get $(c,d,e)=(-frac32,frac35,-frac{1}{20})$. Multiplying by $20$ to get rid of the fractions gives
      $$f(x)=20x^3-30x^2+12x-1$$






      share|cite|improve this answer























      • Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
        – Zero
        Nov 21 at 15:53










      • @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
        – TonyK
        Nov 21 at 15:59











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      4 Answers
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      4 Answers
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      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      The constraints on $f$ only mean that $f$ is orthogonal to the vector space of polynomials of degree less than 2. But there do exist loads of functions who are not constants and satisfy this conditions.



      Take a look at the Gram Schmidt orthonormalisation procedure and try to find a polynomial (for example of degree 3) orthogonal to the polynomials $1$, $x$ and $x^2$.






      share|cite|improve this answer





















      • Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
        – Richard Martin
        Nov 21 at 15:21















      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      The constraints on $f$ only mean that $f$ is orthogonal to the vector space of polynomials of degree less than 2. But there do exist loads of functions who are not constants and satisfy this conditions.



      Take a look at the Gram Schmidt orthonormalisation procedure and try to find a polynomial (for example of degree 3) orthogonal to the polynomials $1$, $x$ and $x^2$.






      share|cite|improve this answer





















      • Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
        – Richard Martin
        Nov 21 at 15:21













      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted






      The constraints on $f$ only mean that $f$ is orthogonal to the vector space of polynomials of degree less than 2. But there do exist loads of functions who are not constants and satisfy this conditions.



      Take a look at the Gram Schmidt orthonormalisation procedure and try to find a polynomial (for example of degree 3) orthogonal to the polynomials $1$, $x$ and $x^2$.






      share|cite|improve this answer












      The constraints on $f$ only mean that $f$ is orthogonal to the vector space of polynomials of degree less than 2. But there do exist loads of functions who are not constants and satisfy this conditions.



      Take a look at the Gram Schmidt orthonormalisation procedure and try to find a polynomial (for example of degree 3) orthogonal to the polynomials $1$, $x$ and $x^2$.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered Nov 21 at 15:20









      dallonsi

      1185




      1185












      • Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
        – Richard Martin
        Nov 21 at 15:21


















      • Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
        – Richard Martin
        Nov 21 at 15:21
















      Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
      – Richard Martin
      Nov 21 at 15:21




      Yup, agreed. If you use Legendres then you can look up the answer because the orthogonalisation has been done for you, which is nice
      – Richard Martin
      Nov 21 at 15:21










      up vote
      2
      down vote













      $f$ is not necessarily constant. To see this, note that the vector space $C^0[a,b]$ has infinite dimension, and
      $$ f mapsto left (int_a^b f(x)dx, int_a^b x f(x)dx, int_a^b x^2 f(x)dxright) $$
      is a linear transformation $C^0[a,b] to mathbb R^3$. Since the domain has larger dimension than the codomain, the kernel of the transformation (that is, the set of all functions for which all three integrals are zero) must be nontrivial.



      (So there's a qualifying $f$ that is not the zero function, which means that it is not constant, because the first integral for a nonzero constant function would not be $0$).






      share|cite|improve this answer



























        up vote
        2
        down vote













        $f$ is not necessarily constant. To see this, note that the vector space $C^0[a,b]$ has infinite dimension, and
        $$ f mapsto left (int_a^b f(x)dx, int_a^b x f(x)dx, int_a^b x^2 f(x)dxright) $$
        is a linear transformation $C^0[a,b] to mathbb R^3$. Since the domain has larger dimension than the codomain, the kernel of the transformation (that is, the set of all functions for which all three integrals are zero) must be nontrivial.



        (So there's a qualifying $f$ that is not the zero function, which means that it is not constant, because the first integral for a nonzero constant function would not be $0$).






        share|cite|improve this answer

























          up vote
          2
          down vote










          up vote
          2
          down vote









          $f$ is not necessarily constant. To see this, note that the vector space $C^0[a,b]$ has infinite dimension, and
          $$ f mapsto left (int_a^b f(x)dx, int_a^b x f(x)dx, int_a^b x^2 f(x)dxright) $$
          is a linear transformation $C^0[a,b] to mathbb R^3$. Since the domain has larger dimension than the codomain, the kernel of the transformation (that is, the set of all functions for which all three integrals are zero) must be nontrivial.



          (So there's a qualifying $f$ that is not the zero function, which means that it is not constant, because the first integral for a nonzero constant function would not be $0$).






          share|cite|improve this answer














          $f$ is not necessarily constant. To see this, note that the vector space $C^0[a,b]$ has infinite dimension, and
          $$ f mapsto left (int_a^b f(x)dx, int_a^b x f(x)dx, int_a^b x^2 f(x)dxright) $$
          is a linear transformation $C^0[a,b] to mathbb R^3$. Since the domain has larger dimension than the codomain, the kernel of the transformation (that is, the set of all functions for which all three integrals are zero) must be nontrivial.



          (So there's a qualifying $f$ that is not the zero function, which means that it is not constant, because the first integral for a nonzero constant function would not be $0$).







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Nov 21 at 15:34

























          answered Nov 21 at 15:28









          Henning Makholm

          236k16300534




          236k16300534






















              up vote
              1
              down vote













              No. WLOG $a=-1$ and $b=1$ (otherwise rescale). Then let $f$ be a Legendre polynomial of degree $ge 3$.






              share|cite|improve this answer

























                up vote
                1
                down vote













                No. WLOG $a=-1$ and $b=1$ (otherwise rescale). Then let $f$ be a Legendre polynomial of degree $ge 3$.






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote









                  No. WLOG $a=-1$ and $b=1$ (otherwise rescale). Then let $f$ be a Legendre polynomial of degree $ge 3$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  No. WLOG $a=-1$ and $b=1$ (otherwise rescale). Then let $f$ be a Legendre polynomial of degree $ge 3$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 21 at 15:19









                  Richard Martin

                  1,63918




                  1,63918






















                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      To construct a counter-example, take $[a,b]=[0,1]$ and consider a cubic polynomial
                      $$f(x)=x^3+cx^2+dx+e$$



                      Then:
                      $$int_0^1 f(x)dx=frac14+frac{c}{3}+frac{d}{2}+e=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 xf(x)dx=frac15+frac{c}{4}+frac{d}{3}+frac{e}{2}=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 x^2f(x)dx=frac16+frac{c}{5}+frac{d}{4}+frac{e}{3}=0$$
                      We have three equations in three unknowns, so we can hope for a solution. And indeed if we do the algebra (or have Wolfram Alpha do it for us), we get $(c,d,e)=(-frac32,frac35,-frac{1}{20})$. Multiplying by $20$ to get rid of the fractions gives
                      $$f(x)=20x^3-30x^2+12x-1$$






                      share|cite|improve this answer























                      • Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
                        – Zero
                        Nov 21 at 15:53










                      • @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
                        – TonyK
                        Nov 21 at 15:59















                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote













                      To construct a counter-example, take $[a,b]=[0,1]$ and consider a cubic polynomial
                      $$f(x)=x^3+cx^2+dx+e$$



                      Then:
                      $$int_0^1 f(x)dx=frac14+frac{c}{3}+frac{d}{2}+e=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 xf(x)dx=frac15+frac{c}{4}+frac{d}{3}+frac{e}{2}=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 x^2f(x)dx=frac16+frac{c}{5}+frac{d}{4}+frac{e}{3}=0$$
                      We have three equations in three unknowns, so we can hope for a solution. And indeed if we do the algebra (or have Wolfram Alpha do it for us), we get $(c,d,e)=(-frac32,frac35,-frac{1}{20})$. Multiplying by $20$ to get rid of the fractions gives
                      $$f(x)=20x^3-30x^2+12x-1$$






                      share|cite|improve this answer























                      • Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
                        – Zero
                        Nov 21 at 15:53










                      • @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
                        – TonyK
                        Nov 21 at 15:59













                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote










                      up vote
                      1
                      down vote









                      To construct a counter-example, take $[a,b]=[0,1]$ and consider a cubic polynomial
                      $$f(x)=x^3+cx^2+dx+e$$



                      Then:
                      $$int_0^1 f(x)dx=frac14+frac{c}{3}+frac{d}{2}+e=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 xf(x)dx=frac15+frac{c}{4}+frac{d}{3}+frac{e}{2}=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 x^2f(x)dx=frac16+frac{c}{5}+frac{d}{4}+frac{e}{3}=0$$
                      We have three equations in three unknowns, so we can hope for a solution. And indeed if we do the algebra (or have Wolfram Alpha do it for us), we get $(c,d,e)=(-frac32,frac35,-frac{1}{20})$. Multiplying by $20$ to get rid of the fractions gives
                      $$f(x)=20x^3-30x^2+12x-1$$






                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      To construct a counter-example, take $[a,b]=[0,1]$ and consider a cubic polynomial
                      $$f(x)=x^3+cx^2+dx+e$$



                      Then:
                      $$int_0^1 f(x)dx=frac14+frac{c}{3}+frac{d}{2}+e=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 xf(x)dx=frac15+frac{c}{4}+frac{d}{3}+frac{e}{2}=0$$
                      $$int_0^1 x^2f(x)dx=frac16+frac{c}{5}+frac{d}{4}+frac{e}{3}=0$$
                      We have three equations in three unknowns, so we can hope for a solution. And indeed if we do the algebra (or have Wolfram Alpha do it for us), we get $(c,d,e)=(-frac32,frac35,-frac{1}{20})$. Multiplying by $20$ to get rid of the fractions gives
                      $$f(x)=20x^3-30x^2+12x-1$$







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited Nov 21 at 15:49

























                      answered Nov 21 at 15:35









                      TonyK

                      41k352131




                      41k352131












                      • Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
                        – Zero
                        Nov 21 at 15:53










                      • @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
                        – TonyK
                        Nov 21 at 15:59


















                      • Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
                        – Zero
                        Nov 21 at 15:53










                      • @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
                        – TonyK
                        Nov 21 at 15:59
















                      Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
                      – Zero
                      Nov 21 at 15:53




                      Thank you, by the way I think the last term is $-1$
                      – Zero
                      Nov 21 at 15:53












                      @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
                      – TonyK
                      Nov 21 at 15:59




                      @Zero: yes, thank you. I have corrected it now.
                      – TonyK
                      Nov 21 at 15:59


















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