Why is this relation antisymmetric?











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$mathcal{R} = {(1,2), (2,3), (3,4)} :: mathcal{A} = {1, 2, 3, 4}$



The definition of antisymmetric states if $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are both elements of $mathcal{R} implies a = b$. However, $(b,a)$ is not an element and yet it is considered antisymmetrical. What is the reasoning behind this?










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    $mathcal{R} = {(1,2), (2,3), (3,4)} :: mathcal{A} = {1, 2, 3, 4}$



    The definition of antisymmetric states if $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are both elements of $mathcal{R} implies a = b$. However, $(b,a)$ is not an element and yet it is considered antisymmetrical. What is the reasoning behind this?










    share|cite|improve this question


























      up vote
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      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      0
      down vote

      favorite











      $mathcal{R} = {(1,2), (2,3), (3,4)} :: mathcal{A} = {1, 2, 3, 4}$



      The definition of antisymmetric states if $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are both elements of $mathcal{R} implies a = b$. However, $(b,a)$ is not an element and yet it is considered antisymmetrical. What is the reasoning behind this?










      share|cite|improve this question















      $mathcal{R} = {(1,2), (2,3), (3,4)} :: mathcal{A} = {1, 2, 3, 4}$



      The definition of antisymmetric states if $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are both elements of $mathcal{R} implies a = b$. However, $(b,a)$ is not an element and yet it is considered antisymmetrical. What is the reasoning behind this?







      discrete-mathematics






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      edited Nov 22 at 18:18









      Yadati Kiran

      1,350418




      1,350418










      asked Nov 22 at 18:06









      VLD

      112




      112






















          3 Answers
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          active

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          up vote
          2
          down vote













          You are confused with the definition of symmetric relation here, for symmetric relation we need $(b,a)$ if we have $(a,b)$ in $R$. In other hand, we call a relation anti-symmetric, if it contains $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ then $a=b$. That means- if there exist some pair $(a,b)$ and also $(b,a)$ with $aneq b$, then the relation is not anti-symmetric. More simply,in anti-symmetric relation we can't have $(a,b)$ with unequal elements $a$ and $b$ such that both $(a,b),(b,a)in R$.



          For visual aid, you can think of a $ntimes n$ table, with $n$ elements of the set(on which you are defining the relation) on top and $n$ in left. We will write $1$ in $(i,j)$ position if $i$ is related to $j$ and $0$ otherwise. Observe that, for anti-symmetric relation, if you have $1$ in $(h,k)$ for some $h$ and $k$ with $hneq k$ then you can't have $1$ at $(k,h)$(though entries at $(i,i)$ will be $1$). But for symmetric relation, if you have $1$ at $(a,b)$ then you must have $1$ at $(b,a)$.



          For the given relation follow the tables below:
          $$
          begin{array}{c|lcr}
          text{Fig I} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \
          hline
          1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
          2 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
          3 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1\
          4 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0
          end{array}~~~~~~begin{array}{c|lcr}
          text{Fig II} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \hline
          1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
          2 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
          3 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 1\
          4 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0
          end{array}
          $$



          Observe that, $text{Fig I}$ doesn't contain the $1$ at the diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed. Hence, is the anti-symmetric relation. $text{Fig II}$ contains $1$ for every diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed above the diagonal-this type of table corresponds to symmetric relation.



          Both may contain $1$ at the diagonal, means $(i,i)$ position for $iin{1,2,3,4}$.



          Hope it will help to distinguish between different kind of relations. (Can you work out how the table will look like reflexive or say asymmetric?)






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
            – VLD
            Nov 22 at 19:43










          • Great! have you got my explanation?
            – tarit goswami
            Nov 22 at 19:44










          • Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
            – VLD
            Nov 22 at 19:52


















          up vote
          1
          down vote













          The definition of an anti-symmetric relation can be thought of as follows:
          $$forall a, b in mathcal{A} ,, left[((a neq b) longrightarrow ((a,b) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((b,a) notin mathcal{R}))right].$$



          So the implication is false ONLY when we have $a,b in mathcal{A}$ such that $a neq b$ and BOTH $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are in the relation $mathcal{R}$.



          Consider $a=1,b=2$. Here $a neq b$ is true, so the hypothesis of the implication is true. Now $(1,2) in mathcal{R}$ and $(2,1) notin mathcal{R}$. This means the conclusion of the (above) implication
          $$((1,2) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((2,1) notin mathcal{R})$$
          is true. So the whole implication is true. Now you can check the remaining pairs as well.






          share|cite|improve this answer






























            up vote
            0
            down vote













            When the statement does not say anything about what happens when both are not elements of $R$ as in this case, we can say that this statement is true because for a statement $p$, $F implies p$ is always $T$ (For $p = F$, $F implies F = T$ and for $p = T$, $F implies T = T$).






            share|cite|improve this answer





















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              3 Answers
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              3 Answers
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              up vote
              2
              down vote













              You are confused with the definition of symmetric relation here, for symmetric relation we need $(b,a)$ if we have $(a,b)$ in $R$. In other hand, we call a relation anti-symmetric, if it contains $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ then $a=b$. That means- if there exist some pair $(a,b)$ and also $(b,a)$ with $aneq b$, then the relation is not anti-symmetric. More simply,in anti-symmetric relation we can't have $(a,b)$ with unequal elements $a$ and $b$ such that both $(a,b),(b,a)in R$.



              For visual aid, you can think of a $ntimes n$ table, with $n$ elements of the set(on which you are defining the relation) on top and $n$ in left. We will write $1$ in $(i,j)$ position if $i$ is related to $j$ and $0$ otherwise. Observe that, for anti-symmetric relation, if you have $1$ in $(h,k)$ for some $h$ and $k$ with $hneq k$ then you can't have $1$ at $(k,h)$(though entries at $(i,i)$ will be $1$). But for symmetric relation, if you have $1$ at $(a,b)$ then you must have $1$ at $(b,a)$.



              For the given relation follow the tables below:
              $$
              begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig I} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \
              hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0
              end{array}~~~~~~begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig II} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0
              end{array}
              $$



              Observe that, $text{Fig I}$ doesn't contain the $1$ at the diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed. Hence, is the anti-symmetric relation. $text{Fig II}$ contains $1$ for every diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed above the diagonal-this type of table corresponds to symmetric relation.



              Both may contain $1$ at the diagonal, means $(i,i)$ position for $iin{1,2,3,4}$.



              Hope it will help to distinguish between different kind of relations. (Can you work out how the table will look like reflexive or say asymmetric?)






              share|cite|improve this answer























              • The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:43










              • Great! have you got my explanation?
                – tarit goswami
                Nov 22 at 19:44










              • Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:52















              up vote
              2
              down vote













              You are confused with the definition of symmetric relation here, for symmetric relation we need $(b,a)$ if we have $(a,b)$ in $R$. In other hand, we call a relation anti-symmetric, if it contains $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ then $a=b$. That means- if there exist some pair $(a,b)$ and also $(b,a)$ with $aneq b$, then the relation is not anti-symmetric. More simply,in anti-symmetric relation we can't have $(a,b)$ with unequal elements $a$ and $b$ such that both $(a,b),(b,a)in R$.



              For visual aid, you can think of a $ntimes n$ table, with $n$ elements of the set(on which you are defining the relation) on top and $n$ in left. We will write $1$ in $(i,j)$ position if $i$ is related to $j$ and $0$ otherwise. Observe that, for anti-symmetric relation, if you have $1$ in $(h,k)$ for some $h$ and $k$ with $hneq k$ then you can't have $1$ at $(k,h)$(though entries at $(i,i)$ will be $1$). But for symmetric relation, if you have $1$ at $(a,b)$ then you must have $1$ at $(b,a)$.



              For the given relation follow the tables below:
              $$
              begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig I} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \
              hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0
              end{array}~~~~~~begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig II} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0
              end{array}
              $$



              Observe that, $text{Fig I}$ doesn't contain the $1$ at the diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed. Hence, is the anti-symmetric relation. $text{Fig II}$ contains $1$ for every diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed above the diagonal-this type of table corresponds to symmetric relation.



              Both may contain $1$ at the diagonal, means $(i,i)$ position for $iin{1,2,3,4}$.



              Hope it will help to distinguish between different kind of relations. (Can you work out how the table will look like reflexive or say asymmetric?)






              share|cite|improve this answer























              • The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:43










              • Great! have you got my explanation?
                – tarit goswami
                Nov 22 at 19:44










              • Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:52













              up vote
              2
              down vote










              up vote
              2
              down vote









              You are confused with the definition of symmetric relation here, for symmetric relation we need $(b,a)$ if we have $(a,b)$ in $R$. In other hand, we call a relation anti-symmetric, if it contains $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ then $a=b$. That means- if there exist some pair $(a,b)$ and also $(b,a)$ with $aneq b$, then the relation is not anti-symmetric. More simply,in anti-symmetric relation we can't have $(a,b)$ with unequal elements $a$ and $b$ such that both $(a,b),(b,a)in R$.



              For visual aid, you can think of a $ntimes n$ table, with $n$ elements of the set(on which you are defining the relation) on top and $n$ in left. We will write $1$ in $(i,j)$ position if $i$ is related to $j$ and $0$ otherwise. Observe that, for anti-symmetric relation, if you have $1$ in $(h,k)$ for some $h$ and $k$ with $hneq k$ then you can't have $1$ at $(k,h)$(though entries at $(i,i)$ will be $1$). But for symmetric relation, if you have $1$ at $(a,b)$ then you must have $1$ at $(b,a)$.



              For the given relation follow the tables below:
              $$
              begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig I} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \
              hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0
              end{array}~~~~~~begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig II} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0
              end{array}
              $$



              Observe that, $text{Fig I}$ doesn't contain the $1$ at the diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed. Hence, is the anti-symmetric relation. $text{Fig II}$ contains $1$ for every diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed above the diagonal-this type of table corresponds to symmetric relation.



              Both may contain $1$ at the diagonal, means $(i,i)$ position for $iin{1,2,3,4}$.



              Hope it will help to distinguish between different kind of relations. (Can you work out how the table will look like reflexive or say asymmetric?)






              share|cite|improve this answer














              You are confused with the definition of symmetric relation here, for symmetric relation we need $(b,a)$ if we have $(a,b)$ in $R$. In other hand, we call a relation anti-symmetric, if it contains $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ then $a=b$. That means- if there exist some pair $(a,b)$ and also $(b,a)$ with $aneq b$, then the relation is not anti-symmetric. More simply,in anti-symmetric relation we can't have $(a,b)$ with unequal elements $a$ and $b$ such that both $(a,b),(b,a)in R$.



              For visual aid, you can think of a $ntimes n$ table, with $n$ elements of the set(on which you are defining the relation) on top and $n$ in left. We will write $1$ in $(i,j)$ position if $i$ is related to $j$ and $0$ otherwise. Observe that, for anti-symmetric relation, if you have $1$ in $(h,k)$ for some $h$ and $k$ with $hneq k$ then you can't have $1$ at $(k,h)$(though entries at $(i,i)$ will be $1$). But for symmetric relation, if you have $1$ at $(a,b)$ then you must have $1$ at $(b,a)$.



              For the given relation follow the tables below:
              $$
              begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig I} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \
              hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 0 & 0
              end{array}~~~~~~begin{array}{c|lcr}
              text{Fig II} & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 \hline
              1 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \
              2 & 1 & 0 & 1 & 0 \
              3 & 0 & 1 & 0 & 1\
              4 & 0 & 0 & 1 & 0
              end{array}
              $$



              Observe that, $text{Fig I}$ doesn't contain the $1$ at the diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed. Hence, is the anti-symmetric relation. $text{Fig II}$ contains $1$ for every diagonally opposite position where $1$ is placed above the diagonal-this type of table corresponds to symmetric relation.



              Both may contain $1$ at the diagonal, means $(i,i)$ position for $iin{1,2,3,4}$.



              Hope it will help to distinguish between different kind of relations. (Can you work out how the table will look like reflexive or say asymmetric?)







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Nov 22 at 19:23

























              answered Nov 22 at 18:14









              tarit goswami

              1,7001421




              1,7001421












              • The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:43










              • Great! have you got my explanation?
                – tarit goswami
                Nov 22 at 19:44










              • Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:52


















              • The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:43










              • Great! have you got my explanation?
                – tarit goswami
                Nov 22 at 19:44










              • Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
                – VLD
                Nov 22 at 19:52
















              The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
              – VLD
              Nov 22 at 19:43




              The table for reflexive would have 1s only along the main diagonal (i,i) and asymmetrical would have 0s along the main diagonal as well as underneath the main diagonal because (j,i) is not part of R.
              – VLD
              Nov 22 at 19:43












              Great! have you got my explanation?
              – tarit goswami
              Nov 22 at 19:44




              Great! have you got my explanation?
              – tarit goswami
              Nov 22 at 19:44












              Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
              – VLD
              Nov 22 at 19:52




              Yes! It was very useful. I missed the part about the definition being an implication.
              – VLD
              Nov 22 at 19:52










              up vote
              1
              down vote













              The definition of an anti-symmetric relation can be thought of as follows:
              $$forall a, b in mathcal{A} ,, left[((a neq b) longrightarrow ((a,b) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((b,a) notin mathcal{R}))right].$$



              So the implication is false ONLY when we have $a,b in mathcal{A}$ such that $a neq b$ and BOTH $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are in the relation $mathcal{R}$.



              Consider $a=1,b=2$. Here $a neq b$ is true, so the hypothesis of the implication is true. Now $(1,2) in mathcal{R}$ and $(2,1) notin mathcal{R}$. This means the conclusion of the (above) implication
              $$((1,2) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((2,1) notin mathcal{R})$$
              is true. So the whole implication is true. Now you can check the remaining pairs as well.






              share|cite|improve this answer



























                up vote
                1
                down vote













                The definition of an anti-symmetric relation can be thought of as follows:
                $$forall a, b in mathcal{A} ,, left[((a neq b) longrightarrow ((a,b) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((b,a) notin mathcal{R}))right].$$



                So the implication is false ONLY when we have $a,b in mathcal{A}$ such that $a neq b$ and BOTH $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are in the relation $mathcal{R}$.



                Consider $a=1,b=2$. Here $a neq b$ is true, so the hypothesis of the implication is true. Now $(1,2) in mathcal{R}$ and $(2,1) notin mathcal{R}$. This means the conclusion of the (above) implication
                $$((1,2) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((2,1) notin mathcal{R})$$
                is true. So the whole implication is true. Now you can check the remaining pairs as well.






                share|cite|improve this answer

























                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  1
                  down vote









                  The definition of an anti-symmetric relation can be thought of as follows:
                  $$forall a, b in mathcal{A} ,, left[((a neq b) longrightarrow ((a,b) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((b,a) notin mathcal{R}))right].$$



                  So the implication is false ONLY when we have $a,b in mathcal{A}$ such that $a neq b$ and BOTH $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are in the relation $mathcal{R}$.



                  Consider $a=1,b=2$. Here $a neq b$ is true, so the hypothesis of the implication is true. Now $(1,2) in mathcal{R}$ and $(2,1) notin mathcal{R}$. This means the conclusion of the (above) implication
                  $$((1,2) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((2,1) notin mathcal{R})$$
                  is true. So the whole implication is true. Now you can check the remaining pairs as well.






                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  The definition of an anti-symmetric relation can be thought of as follows:
                  $$forall a, b in mathcal{A} ,, left[((a neq b) longrightarrow ((a,b) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((b,a) notin mathcal{R}))right].$$



                  So the implication is false ONLY when we have $a,b in mathcal{A}$ such that $a neq b$ and BOTH $(a,b)$ and $(b,a)$ are in the relation $mathcal{R}$.



                  Consider $a=1,b=2$. Here $a neq b$ is true, so the hypothesis of the implication is true. Now $(1,2) in mathcal{R}$ and $(2,1) notin mathcal{R}$. This means the conclusion of the (above) implication
                  $$((1,2) notin mathcal{R}) vee ((2,1) notin mathcal{R})$$
                  is true. So the whole implication is true. Now you can check the remaining pairs as well.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 22 at 20:03

























                  answered Nov 22 at 19:31









                  Anurag A

                  25.4k12249




                  25.4k12249






















                      up vote
                      0
                      down vote













                      When the statement does not say anything about what happens when both are not elements of $R$ as in this case, we can say that this statement is true because for a statement $p$, $F implies p$ is always $T$ (For $p = F$, $F implies F = T$ and for $p = T$, $F implies T = T$).






                      share|cite|improve this answer

























                        up vote
                        0
                        down vote













                        When the statement does not say anything about what happens when both are not elements of $R$ as in this case, we can say that this statement is true because for a statement $p$, $F implies p$ is always $T$ (For $p = F$, $F implies F = T$ and for $p = T$, $F implies T = T$).






                        share|cite|improve this answer























                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote










                          up vote
                          0
                          down vote









                          When the statement does not say anything about what happens when both are not elements of $R$ as in this case, we can say that this statement is true because for a statement $p$, $F implies p$ is always $T$ (For $p = F$, $F implies F = T$ and for $p = T$, $F implies T = T$).






                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          When the statement does not say anything about what happens when both are not elements of $R$ as in this case, we can say that this statement is true because for a statement $p$, $F implies p$ is always $T$ (For $p = F$, $F implies F = T$ and for $p = T$, $F implies T = T$).







                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer










                          answered Nov 22 at 18:11









                          ArsenBerk

                          7,55831338




                          7,55831338






























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