Finding the order of an element in a group $mathbb{Z}_{12}$











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I'm trying to calculate the order of an element in a group. I saw a simple example: find the order of an element $3$ in $mathbb{Z}_{12}$. First they wrote that $langle 3 rangle = {0,3,6,9}$ but I could not understand why. As I understand, we are looking for all the number $ain mathbb{Z}_{12}$ so there exists an $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=a$. So it should be $langle 3 rangle = {3,9}$ because there is no $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=0$ or $3^n=6$. Am I missing something?



Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of $7$ when $mathbb{Z}_{66}$?










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  • In group theory notation. There is one binary operation which may be written as $*$ or $cdot$ or $times$ or $+$ or $circ$ or not written at all. Then the notation $3^n$ means to apply that operation $n$ times. In $mathbb Z_{12}$ the operation is $*=+$. So $3^0 =$ the identity equals $0$. $3^1 = 3$. $3^2 = 3*3=3+3 = 6$ and $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3=9$ and $3^4 = 3*3*3*3= 3+3+3+3 = 0$. We can go one step weirder and not $3^k = ktimes 3$. Because the group is about addition multiplication ... doesn't exist... not in the current universe.
    – fleablood
    Nov 18 at 0:25















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












I'm trying to calculate the order of an element in a group. I saw a simple example: find the order of an element $3$ in $mathbb{Z}_{12}$. First they wrote that $langle 3 rangle = {0,3,6,9}$ but I could not understand why. As I understand, we are looking for all the number $ain mathbb{Z}_{12}$ so there exists an $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=a$. So it should be $langle 3 rangle = {3,9}$ because there is no $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=0$ or $3^n=6$. Am I missing something?



Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of $7$ when $mathbb{Z}_{66}$?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • In group theory notation. There is one binary operation which may be written as $*$ or $cdot$ or $times$ or $+$ or $circ$ or not written at all. Then the notation $3^n$ means to apply that operation $n$ times. In $mathbb Z_{12}$ the operation is $*=+$. So $3^0 =$ the identity equals $0$. $3^1 = 3$. $3^2 = 3*3=3+3 = 6$ and $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3=9$ and $3^4 = 3*3*3*3= 3+3+3+3 = 0$. We can go one step weirder and not $3^k = ktimes 3$. Because the group is about addition multiplication ... doesn't exist... not in the current universe.
    – fleablood
    Nov 18 at 0:25













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











I'm trying to calculate the order of an element in a group. I saw a simple example: find the order of an element $3$ in $mathbb{Z}_{12}$. First they wrote that $langle 3 rangle = {0,3,6,9}$ but I could not understand why. As I understand, we are looking for all the number $ain mathbb{Z}_{12}$ so there exists an $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=a$. So it should be $langle 3 rangle = {3,9}$ because there is no $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=0$ or $3^n=6$. Am I missing something?



Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of $7$ when $mathbb{Z}_{66}$?










share|cite|improve this question













I'm trying to calculate the order of an element in a group. I saw a simple example: find the order of an element $3$ in $mathbb{Z}_{12}$. First they wrote that $langle 3 rangle = {0,3,6,9}$ but I could not understand why. As I understand, we are looking for all the number $ain mathbb{Z}_{12}$ so there exists an $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=a$. So it should be $langle 3 rangle = {3,9}$ because there is no $nin mathbb{N}$ so $3^n=0$ or $3^n=6$. Am I missing something?



Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of $7$ when $mathbb{Z}_{66}$?







group-theory






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asked Nov 17 at 23:59









vesii

635




635












  • In group theory notation. There is one binary operation which may be written as $*$ or $cdot$ or $times$ or $+$ or $circ$ or not written at all. Then the notation $3^n$ means to apply that operation $n$ times. In $mathbb Z_{12}$ the operation is $*=+$. So $3^0 =$ the identity equals $0$. $3^1 = 3$. $3^2 = 3*3=3+3 = 6$ and $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3=9$ and $3^4 = 3*3*3*3= 3+3+3+3 = 0$. We can go one step weirder and not $3^k = ktimes 3$. Because the group is about addition multiplication ... doesn't exist... not in the current universe.
    – fleablood
    Nov 18 at 0:25


















  • In group theory notation. There is one binary operation which may be written as $*$ or $cdot$ or $times$ or $+$ or $circ$ or not written at all. Then the notation $3^n$ means to apply that operation $n$ times. In $mathbb Z_{12}$ the operation is $*=+$. So $3^0 =$ the identity equals $0$. $3^1 = 3$. $3^2 = 3*3=3+3 = 6$ and $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3=9$ and $3^4 = 3*3*3*3= 3+3+3+3 = 0$. We can go one step weirder and not $3^k = ktimes 3$. Because the group is about addition multiplication ... doesn't exist... not in the current universe.
    – fleablood
    Nov 18 at 0:25
















In group theory notation. There is one binary operation which may be written as $*$ or $cdot$ or $times$ or $+$ or $circ$ or not written at all. Then the notation $3^n$ means to apply that operation $n$ times. In $mathbb Z_{12}$ the operation is $*=+$. So $3^0 =$ the identity equals $0$. $3^1 = 3$. $3^2 = 3*3=3+3 = 6$ and $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3=9$ and $3^4 = 3*3*3*3= 3+3+3+3 = 0$. We can go one step weirder and not $3^k = ktimes 3$. Because the group is about addition multiplication ... doesn't exist... not in the current universe.
– fleablood
Nov 18 at 0:25




In group theory notation. There is one binary operation which may be written as $*$ or $cdot$ or $times$ or $+$ or $circ$ or not written at all. Then the notation $3^n$ means to apply that operation $n$ times. In $mathbb Z_{12}$ the operation is $*=+$. So $3^0 =$ the identity equals $0$. $3^1 = 3$. $3^2 = 3*3=3+3 = 6$ and $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3=9$ and $3^4 = 3*3*3*3= 3+3+3+3 = 0$. We can go one step weirder and not $3^k = ktimes 3$. Because the group is about addition multiplication ... doesn't exist... not in the current universe.
– fleablood
Nov 18 at 0:25










3 Answers
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up vote
4
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I think your mistake with the theory is notational. In some group theory settings, "$3^n$" would represent the group operation combining the element with itself n times. This is just for convenience, as it looks cleaner to talk about elements in an abstract group like "$a^2b^3$", sort of how you would imagine integers being factored like primes.



Therefore, when the operation over the set $mathbb{Z}_k$ is + , "$3^n$" really means "$3n$," where you use the standard quotient to take remainders (over k).



You might try and use the greatest common divisor to figure out how large the set is. You want to see how large the set is in question, but the set should be linear. It only "wraps around" after a certain point, which I believe occurs at $frac{k}{text{gcd}(a, k)}$ for an element "a" and a modulus "k."






share|cite|improve this answer






























    up vote
    2
    down vote













    In a group we have an operation. We don't know what the operation actually IS but it is an operation.



    Now maybe we shouldn't but we tend to use the notation of multiplication. So we'll often write $ain G; b in G$ and $a*b = c$ as $ab = c$. That doesn't actually mean the operation is arithmetic multiplication. It could be any group operation.



    We use the notation $a^k; a in G; k in mathbb N$ to mean $underbrace{a*a*a*a....*a}_{ktext{ times}}$. This is similar to the concept of multiplication but the operation isn't necessarily arthemetical multiplication. It is the group operation.



    Perhaps we shouldn't. If $*$ is not multiplication the $a^k$ is not multiplicative exponents. But we are doing ABSTRACT algebra. $*$ is not multiplication; it is any operation we want. Aid $a^k$ is not mmultiplicative exponents. It is exponents on our operation whatever it is.



    And if our operation is ADDITION, nothing changes. $3^k = underbrace{3 + 3+ .... + 3}_{k text{ times}}$.



    So



    $3^2 = 3*3 = 3+3pmod {12} = 6$.



    And $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3pmod {12} = 9$. And $3^4 = 3*3*3*3 = 3+3+3+3pmod {12} = 0$.



    In fact. If $a*b = a + bpmod {12}$ and $a^k = a+a+a..... + a pmod {12} = ktimes a pmod {12}$.



    The thing is... As for as the additive group $mathbb Z_{12}$ goes the only operation we have is addition and multiplication does not exist. So thinking of "powers" as exponents over multiplication just... doesn't make sense. If anything they are "exponents of addition".



    ......




    Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of 7 when Z66?




    Okay $7^2 = 7+7 = 2times 7 = 14$ and ....



    we want to find the smallest $k$ where $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



    Well, trial and error shows us $7^9 = 9times 7 =63$ and $7^{10} = 10times 7 = 70 equiv 4 pmod {66}$ and.... and $7^{19} =19times 7 19 = 133equiv 1 pmod{66}$ and $7^{20} = 20times 7 = 140 equiv 8pmod{66}$ and... sheesh, how long do we have to go?!



    Oh, heck... here's a secret.



    We want $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



    That means there is a $N$ so that $7k = 66N$. So $k = frac {66N}{7}$. Now $7$ is relatively prime to $66$ so $frac m7$ must be an integer. so let $frac N7 = v$.



    Then $k = 66*v$. So $frac {k}{66} = v$. The smallest possible $k$ is if $j = 66$ and indeed $7^{66} = 66times 7 equiv 0 pmod{66}$ and we know that no smaller such number exists because.... well, $7$ and $66$ are relatively prime....



    In general the formula if if $|a| = k$ in $mathbb Z_m$ so that $a^k = 0 implies ktimes a = mtimes N$ for some $N$ the smallest such $k$ that can do this is if $ktimes a = mtimes N$ is the least common multiple of $a$ and $m$. ANd that would be when $k = frac {m}{gcd(a,m)}$.



    Hence the formula you saw. $|a| = frac {|mathbb Z_m|}{gcd(a, |mathbb Z_m|)}$. (because $|mathbb Z_m| = m$).



    ====



    Actually John Nash's answer has a good insight for this.



    $mathbb Z_n$ is a cyclic group generated by $1$. $a= 1+1+1....= 1^a$ and $a^k = 1^{ak}$ and $0 = 1^{nm}$ fr some $m$.



    So the order $k$ of $a$ will be occur with $ak=nm$ is the least common multiple of $n$ and $a$. I.E. if $k = frac{n}{gcd(n,a)}$.



    (If you are curious what rule $m = frac {a}{gcd(n,a)}$ plays... well it doesn't really play any role. It's how many times $a$ has to "double back" because its remainder doesn't divide "nicely" into $n$. It's ... only as significant as we want it to be.)






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    • I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
      – vesii
      Nov 18 at 20:08












    • Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
      – fleablood
      Nov 18 at 21:56










    • It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
      – fleablood
      Nov 18 at 22:11










    • I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
      – fleablood
      Nov 18 at 22:15










    • that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
      – vesii
      Nov 19 at 16:29




















    up vote
    1
    down vote













    $Z$₁₂ is a cyclic group under addition. So the generator 'a' of the form ={na | for some n€ $Z$ }.
    In order to find order of $3$ we need to do as follows:
    <3>={3,6,9,0}={0,3,6,9}
    here n=4 for which <3> is zero. Hence order of $3$ is $4$.






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    • This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
      – fleablood
      Nov 19 at 16:58











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    3 Answers
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    up vote
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    I think your mistake with the theory is notational. In some group theory settings, "$3^n$" would represent the group operation combining the element with itself n times. This is just for convenience, as it looks cleaner to talk about elements in an abstract group like "$a^2b^3$", sort of how you would imagine integers being factored like primes.



    Therefore, when the operation over the set $mathbb{Z}_k$ is + , "$3^n$" really means "$3n$," where you use the standard quotient to take remainders (over k).



    You might try and use the greatest common divisor to figure out how large the set is. You want to see how large the set is in question, but the set should be linear. It only "wraps around" after a certain point, which I believe occurs at $frac{k}{text{gcd}(a, k)}$ for an element "a" and a modulus "k."






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      4
      down vote













      I think your mistake with the theory is notational. In some group theory settings, "$3^n$" would represent the group operation combining the element with itself n times. This is just for convenience, as it looks cleaner to talk about elements in an abstract group like "$a^2b^3$", sort of how you would imagine integers being factored like primes.



      Therefore, when the operation over the set $mathbb{Z}_k$ is + , "$3^n$" really means "$3n$," where you use the standard quotient to take remainders (over k).



      You might try and use the greatest common divisor to figure out how large the set is. You want to see how large the set is in question, but the set should be linear. It only "wraps around" after a certain point, which I believe occurs at $frac{k}{text{gcd}(a, k)}$ for an element "a" and a modulus "k."






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        4
        down vote










        up vote
        4
        down vote









        I think your mistake with the theory is notational. In some group theory settings, "$3^n$" would represent the group operation combining the element with itself n times. This is just for convenience, as it looks cleaner to talk about elements in an abstract group like "$a^2b^3$", sort of how you would imagine integers being factored like primes.



        Therefore, when the operation over the set $mathbb{Z}_k$ is + , "$3^n$" really means "$3n$," where you use the standard quotient to take remainders (over k).



        You might try and use the greatest common divisor to figure out how large the set is. You want to see how large the set is in question, but the set should be linear. It only "wraps around" after a certain point, which I believe occurs at $frac{k}{text{gcd}(a, k)}$ for an element "a" and a modulus "k."






        share|cite|improve this answer














        I think your mistake with the theory is notational. In some group theory settings, "$3^n$" would represent the group operation combining the element with itself n times. This is just for convenience, as it looks cleaner to talk about elements in an abstract group like "$a^2b^3$", sort of how you would imagine integers being factored like primes.



        Therefore, when the operation over the set $mathbb{Z}_k$ is + , "$3^n$" really means "$3n$," where you use the standard quotient to take remainders (over k).



        You might try and use the greatest common divisor to figure out how large the set is. You want to see how large the set is in question, but the set should be linear. It only "wraps around" after a certain point, which I believe occurs at $frac{k}{text{gcd}(a, k)}$ for an element "a" and a modulus "k."







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Nov 18 at 0:17

























        answered Nov 18 at 0:11









        theREALyumdub

        900617




        900617






















            up vote
            2
            down vote













            In a group we have an operation. We don't know what the operation actually IS but it is an operation.



            Now maybe we shouldn't but we tend to use the notation of multiplication. So we'll often write $ain G; b in G$ and $a*b = c$ as $ab = c$. That doesn't actually mean the operation is arithmetic multiplication. It could be any group operation.



            We use the notation $a^k; a in G; k in mathbb N$ to mean $underbrace{a*a*a*a....*a}_{ktext{ times}}$. This is similar to the concept of multiplication but the operation isn't necessarily arthemetical multiplication. It is the group operation.



            Perhaps we shouldn't. If $*$ is not multiplication the $a^k$ is not multiplicative exponents. But we are doing ABSTRACT algebra. $*$ is not multiplication; it is any operation we want. Aid $a^k$ is not mmultiplicative exponents. It is exponents on our operation whatever it is.



            And if our operation is ADDITION, nothing changes. $3^k = underbrace{3 + 3+ .... + 3}_{k text{ times}}$.



            So



            $3^2 = 3*3 = 3+3pmod {12} = 6$.



            And $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3pmod {12} = 9$. And $3^4 = 3*3*3*3 = 3+3+3+3pmod {12} = 0$.



            In fact. If $a*b = a + bpmod {12}$ and $a^k = a+a+a..... + a pmod {12} = ktimes a pmod {12}$.



            The thing is... As for as the additive group $mathbb Z_{12}$ goes the only operation we have is addition and multiplication does not exist. So thinking of "powers" as exponents over multiplication just... doesn't make sense. If anything they are "exponents of addition".



            ......




            Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of 7 when Z66?




            Okay $7^2 = 7+7 = 2times 7 = 14$ and ....



            we want to find the smallest $k$ where $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            Well, trial and error shows us $7^9 = 9times 7 =63$ and $7^{10} = 10times 7 = 70 equiv 4 pmod {66}$ and.... and $7^{19} =19times 7 19 = 133equiv 1 pmod{66}$ and $7^{20} = 20times 7 = 140 equiv 8pmod{66}$ and... sheesh, how long do we have to go?!



            Oh, heck... here's a secret.



            We want $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            That means there is a $N$ so that $7k = 66N$. So $k = frac {66N}{7}$. Now $7$ is relatively prime to $66$ so $frac m7$ must be an integer. so let $frac N7 = v$.



            Then $k = 66*v$. So $frac {k}{66} = v$. The smallest possible $k$ is if $j = 66$ and indeed $7^{66} = 66times 7 equiv 0 pmod{66}$ and we know that no smaller such number exists because.... well, $7$ and $66$ are relatively prime....



            In general the formula if if $|a| = k$ in $mathbb Z_m$ so that $a^k = 0 implies ktimes a = mtimes N$ for some $N$ the smallest such $k$ that can do this is if $ktimes a = mtimes N$ is the least common multiple of $a$ and $m$. ANd that would be when $k = frac {m}{gcd(a,m)}$.



            Hence the formula you saw. $|a| = frac {|mathbb Z_m|}{gcd(a, |mathbb Z_m|)}$. (because $|mathbb Z_m| = m$).



            ====



            Actually John Nash's answer has a good insight for this.



            $mathbb Z_n$ is a cyclic group generated by $1$. $a= 1+1+1....= 1^a$ and $a^k = 1^{ak}$ and $0 = 1^{nm}$ fr some $m$.



            So the order $k$ of $a$ will be occur with $ak=nm$ is the least common multiple of $n$ and $a$. I.E. if $k = frac{n}{gcd(n,a)}$.



            (If you are curious what rule $m = frac {a}{gcd(n,a)}$ plays... well it doesn't really play any role. It's how many times $a$ has to "double back" because its remainder doesn't divide "nicely" into $n$. It's ... only as significant as we want it to be.)






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
              – vesii
              Nov 18 at 20:08












            • Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 21:56










            • It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:11










            • I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:15










            • that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
              – vesii
              Nov 19 at 16:29

















            up vote
            2
            down vote













            In a group we have an operation. We don't know what the operation actually IS but it is an operation.



            Now maybe we shouldn't but we tend to use the notation of multiplication. So we'll often write $ain G; b in G$ and $a*b = c$ as $ab = c$. That doesn't actually mean the operation is arithmetic multiplication. It could be any group operation.



            We use the notation $a^k; a in G; k in mathbb N$ to mean $underbrace{a*a*a*a....*a}_{ktext{ times}}$. This is similar to the concept of multiplication but the operation isn't necessarily arthemetical multiplication. It is the group operation.



            Perhaps we shouldn't. If $*$ is not multiplication the $a^k$ is not multiplicative exponents. But we are doing ABSTRACT algebra. $*$ is not multiplication; it is any operation we want. Aid $a^k$ is not mmultiplicative exponents. It is exponents on our operation whatever it is.



            And if our operation is ADDITION, nothing changes. $3^k = underbrace{3 + 3+ .... + 3}_{k text{ times}}$.



            So



            $3^2 = 3*3 = 3+3pmod {12} = 6$.



            And $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3pmod {12} = 9$. And $3^4 = 3*3*3*3 = 3+3+3+3pmod {12} = 0$.



            In fact. If $a*b = a + bpmod {12}$ and $a^k = a+a+a..... + a pmod {12} = ktimes a pmod {12}$.



            The thing is... As for as the additive group $mathbb Z_{12}$ goes the only operation we have is addition and multiplication does not exist. So thinking of "powers" as exponents over multiplication just... doesn't make sense. If anything they are "exponents of addition".



            ......




            Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of 7 when Z66?




            Okay $7^2 = 7+7 = 2times 7 = 14$ and ....



            we want to find the smallest $k$ where $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            Well, trial and error shows us $7^9 = 9times 7 =63$ and $7^{10} = 10times 7 = 70 equiv 4 pmod {66}$ and.... and $7^{19} =19times 7 19 = 133equiv 1 pmod{66}$ and $7^{20} = 20times 7 = 140 equiv 8pmod{66}$ and... sheesh, how long do we have to go?!



            Oh, heck... here's a secret.



            We want $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            That means there is a $N$ so that $7k = 66N$. So $k = frac {66N}{7}$. Now $7$ is relatively prime to $66$ so $frac m7$ must be an integer. so let $frac N7 = v$.



            Then $k = 66*v$. So $frac {k}{66} = v$. The smallest possible $k$ is if $j = 66$ and indeed $7^{66} = 66times 7 equiv 0 pmod{66}$ and we know that no smaller such number exists because.... well, $7$ and $66$ are relatively prime....



            In general the formula if if $|a| = k$ in $mathbb Z_m$ so that $a^k = 0 implies ktimes a = mtimes N$ for some $N$ the smallest such $k$ that can do this is if $ktimes a = mtimes N$ is the least common multiple of $a$ and $m$. ANd that would be when $k = frac {m}{gcd(a,m)}$.



            Hence the formula you saw. $|a| = frac {|mathbb Z_m|}{gcd(a, |mathbb Z_m|)}$. (because $|mathbb Z_m| = m$).



            ====



            Actually John Nash's answer has a good insight for this.



            $mathbb Z_n$ is a cyclic group generated by $1$. $a= 1+1+1....= 1^a$ and $a^k = 1^{ak}$ and $0 = 1^{nm}$ fr some $m$.



            So the order $k$ of $a$ will be occur with $ak=nm$ is the least common multiple of $n$ and $a$. I.E. if $k = frac{n}{gcd(n,a)}$.



            (If you are curious what rule $m = frac {a}{gcd(n,a)}$ plays... well it doesn't really play any role. It's how many times $a$ has to "double back" because its remainder doesn't divide "nicely" into $n$. It's ... only as significant as we want it to be.)






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
              – vesii
              Nov 18 at 20:08












            • Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 21:56










            • It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:11










            • I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:15










            • that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
              – vesii
              Nov 19 at 16:29















            up vote
            2
            down vote










            up vote
            2
            down vote









            In a group we have an operation. We don't know what the operation actually IS but it is an operation.



            Now maybe we shouldn't but we tend to use the notation of multiplication. So we'll often write $ain G; b in G$ and $a*b = c$ as $ab = c$. That doesn't actually mean the operation is arithmetic multiplication. It could be any group operation.



            We use the notation $a^k; a in G; k in mathbb N$ to mean $underbrace{a*a*a*a....*a}_{ktext{ times}}$. This is similar to the concept of multiplication but the operation isn't necessarily arthemetical multiplication. It is the group operation.



            Perhaps we shouldn't. If $*$ is not multiplication the $a^k$ is not multiplicative exponents. But we are doing ABSTRACT algebra. $*$ is not multiplication; it is any operation we want. Aid $a^k$ is not mmultiplicative exponents. It is exponents on our operation whatever it is.



            And if our operation is ADDITION, nothing changes. $3^k = underbrace{3 + 3+ .... + 3}_{k text{ times}}$.



            So



            $3^2 = 3*3 = 3+3pmod {12} = 6$.



            And $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3pmod {12} = 9$. And $3^4 = 3*3*3*3 = 3+3+3+3pmod {12} = 0$.



            In fact. If $a*b = a + bpmod {12}$ and $a^k = a+a+a..... + a pmod {12} = ktimes a pmod {12}$.



            The thing is... As for as the additive group $mathbb Z_{12}$ goes the only operation we have is addition and multiplication does not exist. So thinking of "powers" as exponents over multiplication just... doesn't make sense. If anything they are "exponents of addition".



            ......




            Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of 7 when Z66?




            Okay $7^2 = 7+7 = 2times 7 = 14$ and ....



            we want to find the smallest $k$ where $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            Well, trial and error shows us $7^9 = 9times 7 =63$ and $7^{10} = 10times 7 = 70 equiv 4 pmod {66}$ and.... and $7^{19} =19times 7 19 = 133equiv 1 pmod{66}$ and $7^{20} = 20times 7 = 140 equiv 8pmod{66}$ and... sheesh, how long do we have to go?!



            Oh, heck... here's a secret.



            We want $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            That means there is a $N$ so that $7k = 66N$. So $k = frac {66N}{7}$. Now $7$ is relatively prime to $66$ so $frac m7$ must be an integer. so let $frac N7 = v$.



            Then $k = 66*v$. So $frac {k}{66} = v$. The smallest possible $k$ is if $j = 66$ and indeed $7^{66} = 66times 7 equiv 0 pmod{66}$ and we know that no smaller such number exists because.... well, $7$ and $66$ are relatively prime....



            In general the formula if if $|a| = k$ in $mathbb Z_m$ so that $a^k = 0 implies ktimes a = mtimes N$ for some $N$ the smallest such $k$ that can do this is if $ktimes a = mtimes N$ is the least common multiple of $a$ and $m$. ANd that would be when $k = frac {m}{gcd(a,m)}$.



            Hence the formula you saw. $|a| = frac {|mathbb Z_m|}{gcd(a, |mathbb Z_m|)}$. (because $|mathbb Z_m| = m$).



            ====



            Actually John Nash's answer has a good insight for this.



            $mathbb Z_n$ is a cyclic group generated by $1$. $a= 1+1+1....= 1^a$ and $a^k = 1^{ak}$ and $0 = 1^{nm}$ fr some $m$.



            So the order $k$ of $a$ will be occur with $ak=nm$ is the least common multiple of $n$ and $a$. I.E. if $k = frac{n}{gcd(n,a)}$.



            (If you are curious what rule $m = frac {a}{gcd(n,a)}$ plays... well it doesn't really play any role. It's how many times $a$ has to "double back" because its remainder doesn't divide "nicely" into $n$. It's ... only as significant as we want it to be.)






            share|cite|improve this answer














            In a group we have an operation. We don't know what the operation actually IS but it is an operation.



            Now maybe we shouldn't but we tend to use the notation of multiplication. So we'll often write $ain G; b in G$ and $a*b = c$ as $ab = c$. That doesn't actually mean the operation is arithmetic multiplication. It could be any group operation.



            We use the notation $a^k; a in G; k in mathbb N$ to mean $underbrace{a*a*a*a....*a}_{ktext{ times}}$. This is similar to the concept of multiplication but the operation isn't necessarily arthemetical multiplication. It is the group operation.



            Perhaps we shouldn't. If $*$ is not multiplication the $a^k$ is not multiplicative exponents. But we are doing ABSTRACT algebra. $*$ is not multiplication; it is any operation we want. Aid $a^k$ is not mmultiplicative exponents. It is exponents on our operation whatever it is.



            And if our operation is ADDITION, nothing changes. $3^k = underbrace{3 + 3+ .... + 3}_{k text{ times}}$.



            So



            $3^2 = 3*3 = 3+3pmod {12} = 6$.



            And $3^3 = 3*3*3 = 3+3+3pmod {12} = 9$. And $3^4 = 3*3*3*3 = 3+3+3+3pmod {12} = 0$.



            In fact. If $a*b = a + bpmod {12}$ and $a^k = a+a+a..... + a pmod {12} = ktimes a pmod {12}$.



            The thing is... As for as the additive group $mathbb Z_{12}$ goes the only operation we have is addition and multiplication does not exist. So thinking of "powers" as exponents over multiplication just... doesn't make sense. If anything they are "exponents of addition".



            ......




            Also, is there a faster way to determine the order? What if I would like to calculate the order of 7 when Z66?




            Okay $7^2 = 7+7 = 2times 7 = 14$ and ....



            we want to find the smallest $k$ where $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            Well, trial and error shows us $7^9 = 9times 7 =63$ and $7^{10} = 10times 7 = 70 equiv 4 pmod {66}$ and.... and $7^{19} =19times 7 19 = 133equiv 1 pmod{66}$ and $7^{20} = 20times 7 = 140 equiv 8pmod{66}$ and... sheesh, how long do we have to go?!



            Oh, heck... here's a secret.



            We want $7^k = ktimes 7 equiv 0 pmod {66}$.



            That means there is a $N$ so that $7k = 66N$. So $k = frac {66N}{7}$. Now $7$ is relatively prime to $66$ so $frac m7$ must be an integer. so let $frac N7 = v$.



            Then $k = 66*v$. So $frac {k}{66} = v$. The smallest possible $k$ is if $j = 66$ and indeed $7^{66} = 66times 7 equiv 0 pmod{66}$ and we know that no smaller such number exists because.... well, $7$ and $66$ are relatively prime....



            In general the formula if if $|a| = k$ in $mathbb Z_m$ so that $a^k = 0 implies ktimes a = mtimes N$ for some $N$ the smallest such $k$ that can do this is if $ktimes a = mtimes N$ is the least common multiple of $a$ and $m$. ANd that would be when $k = frac {m}{gcd(a,m)}$.



            Hence the formula you saw. $|a| = frac {|mathbb Z_m|}{gcd(a, |mathbb Z_m|)}$. (because $|mathbb Z_m| = m$).



            ====



            Actually John Nash's answer has a good insight for this.



            $mathbb Z_n$ is a cyclic group generated by $1$. $a= 1+1+1....= 1^a$ and $a^k = 1^{ak}$ and $0 = 1^{nm}$ fr some $m$.



            So the order $k$ of $a$ will be occur with $ak=nm$ is the least common multiple of $n$ and $a$. I.E. if $k = frac{n}{gcd(n,a)}$.



            (If you are curious what rule $m = frac {a}{gcd(n,a)}$ plays... well it doesn't really play any role. It's how many times $a$ has to "double back" because its remainder doesn't divide "nicely" into $n$. It's ... only as significant as we want it to be.)







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Nov 19 at 17:08

























            answered Nov 18 at 0:50









            fleablood

            66.6k22684




            66.6k22684












            • I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
              – vesii
              Nov 18 at 20:08












            • Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 21:56










            • It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:11










            • I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:15










            • that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
              – vesii
              Nov 19 at 16:29




















            • I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
              – vesii
              Nov 18 at 20:08












            • Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 21:56










            • It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:11










            • I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
              – fleablood
              Nov 18 at 22:15










            • that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
              – vesii
              Nov 19 at 16:29


















            I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
            – vesii
            Nov 18 at 20:08






            I saw the use of the following equation: $|x|=frac{|mathbb{Z_{m}}|}{gcd(|mathbb{Z_{m}}|,x)}$. But for this question it will give us: $|7|=frac{66}{gcd(66,7)}=66$ and not $19$. Am I missing something again?
            – vesii
            Nov 18 at 20:08














            Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
            – fleablood
            Nov 18 at 21:56




            Argh... No! You are right and I am wrong! I made a very foolish mistake! $1$ is not the identity for addition. $0$ is the identity. (I was even going to point that out but I thought that would confuse things). SO we want $7^k = e$ or $ktimes 7 equiv 0 mod 66$ not $ktimes 7 equiv 1 mod 66$. !!!! BIG difference! ... I'm sorry and I'll fix it.
            – fleablood
            Nov 18 at 21:56












            It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
            – fleablood
            Nov 18 at 22:11




            It's funny beecause in making the mistake $7^{19} =1$ I made the exact same mistake you did. I forgot for a moment we were dealing with ADDITION and not multiplication. Because this is addition we need $7^k = ktimes 0 equiv 0 pmod{66}$.
            – fleablood
            Nov 18 at 22:11












            I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
            – fleablood
            Nov 18 at 22:15




            I'm surprised no-one else caught me on this!
            – fleablood
            Nov 18 at 22:15












            that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
            – vesii
            Nov 19 at 16:29






            that's ok! thanks for the answer. Is there a similar formula for $mathbb{Z}_{n}^{times}$?
            – vesii
            Nov 19 at 16:29












            up vote
            1
            down vote













            $Z$₁₂ is a cyclic group under addition. So the generator 'a' of the form ={na | for some n€ $Z$ }.
            In order to find order of $3$ we need to do as follows:
            <3>={3,6,9,0}={0,3,6,9}
            here n=4 for which <3> is zero. Hence order of $3$ is $4$.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 19 at 16:58















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            $Z$₁₂ is a cyclic group under addition. So the generator 'a' of the form ={na | for some n€ $Z$ }.
            In order to find order of $3$ we need to do as follows:
            <3>={3,6,9,0}={0,3,6,9}
            here n=4 for which <3> is zero. Hence order of $3$ is $4$.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 19 at 16:58













            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote









            $Z$₁₂ is a cyclic group under addition. So the generator 'a' of the form ={na | for some n€ $Z$ }.
            In order to find order of $3$ we need to do as follows:
            <3>={3,6,9,0}={0,3,6,9}
            here n=4 for which <3> is zero. Hence order of $3$ is $4$.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            $Z$₁₂ is a cyclic group under addition. So the generator 'a' of the form ={na | for some n€ $Z$ }.
            In order to find order of $3$ we need to do as follows:
            <3>={3,6,9,0}={0,3,6,9}
            here n=4 for which <3> is zero. Hence order of $3$ is $4$.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Nov 18 at 0:20









            John Nash

            6818




            6818












            • This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 19 at 16:58


















            • This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
              – fleablood
              Nov 19 at 16:58
















            This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
            – fleablood
            Nov 19 at 16:58




            This answer has a very good insight. I think the OP would do well to consider it.
            – fleablood
            Nov 19 at 16:58


















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