Isomorphism on a torsion group - automorphism or endomorphism?











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Let $f:Gto G$ be a surjection from a torsion group $G$ onto itself.



Let the kernel have infinite cardinality: $lvertker(f)rvert=aleph_0$




What category of function on groups is this?




To my mind this cannot be a group automorphism because at the very least an automorphism must map the identity onto itself in order to satisfy $f(acdot b)=f(a)circ f(b)$.



Clearly $f$ does not yield distinct inverses.



Is $f$ therefore an endomorphism instead?



In part, I'm asking whether an endomorphism on a torsion group can have a kernel with infinite cardinality - what with the elements themselves having finite order and all.



I'm asking with half an eye on groups of intermediate growth such as the Grigorchuk group, and any torsion group structure on which variants of the Collatz function might be an endomorphism.










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  • 1




    Well, the trivial homomorphism is an endomorphism with infinite cardinality if the group is infinite...
    – DonAntonio
    Nov 20 at 11:05






  • 2




    Anyway if you actualy meant "epimorphism" then there still can be an epimorphism $Gto G$ with infinite kernel. Take $G=bigoplus_{i=1}^{infty} mathbb{Z}_2$ and map $(x_1,x_2,x_3,x_4,ldots)$ to $(x_1, x_3, x_5, x_7,ldots)$.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 11:11








  • 1




    So you are looking for non-Hopfian torsion groups. It's easy to construct examples such as the direct product of infinitely many copies of the same finite group. The question would be more interesting if you assumed that $G$ is finitely generated. I don't know immediately whether there are any such examples.
    – Derek Holt
    Nov 20 at 11:13








  • 1




    Grigorchuck group would not work since every quotient is finite. I don't know of any finitely generated non hopfian torsion groups(they could exist, but it might be an open problem if they do too)
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 20 at 11:35






  • 1




    @RobertFrost Yes, formally $mathbb{Z}_2=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$ is the group of integers modulo $2$. The finite group of $2$ elements.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 12:23

















up vote
-1
down vote

favorite
1












Let $f:Gto G$ be a surjection from a torsion group $G$ onto itself.



Let the kernel have infinite cardinality: $lvertker(f)rvert=aleph_0$




What category of function on groups is this?




To my mind this cannot be a group automorphism because at the very least an automorphism must map the identity onto itself in order to satisfy $f(acdot b)=f(a)circ f(b)$.



Clearly $f$ does not yield distinct inverses.



Is $f$ therefore an endomorphism instead?



In part, I'm asking whether an endomorphism on a torsion group can have a kernel with infinite cardinality - what with the elements themselves having finite order and all.



I'm asking with half an eye on groups of intermediate growth such as the Grigorchuk group, and any torsion group structure on which variants of the Collatz function might be an endomorphism.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    Well, the trivial homomorphism is an endomorphism with infinite cardinality if the group is infinite...
    – DonAntonio
    Nov 20 at 11:05






  • 2




    Anyway if you actualy meant "epimorphism" then there still can be an epimorphism $Gto G$ with infinite kernel. Take $G=bigoplus_{i=1}^{infty} mathbb{Z}_2$ and map $(x_1,x_2,x_3,x_4,ldots)$ to $(x_1, x_3, x_5, x_7,ldots)$.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 11:11








  • 1




    So you are looking for non-Hopfian torsion groups. It's easy to construct examples such as the direct product of infinitely many copies of the same finite group. The question would be more interesting if you assumed that $G$ is finitely generated. I don't know immediately whether there are any such examples.
    – Derek Holt
    Nov 20 at 11:13








  • 1




    Grigorchuck group would not work since every quotient is finite. I don't know of any finitely generated non hopfian torsion groups(they could exist, but it might be an open problem if they do too)
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 20 at 11:35






  • 1




    @RobertFrost Yes, formally $mathbb{Z}_2=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$ is the group of integers modulo $2$. The finite group of $2$ elements.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 12:23















up vote
-1
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
-1
down vote

favorite
1






1





Let $f:Gto G$ be a surjection from a torsion group $G$ onto itself.



Let the kernel have infinite cardinality: $lvertker(f)rvert=aleph_0$




What category of function on groups is this?




To my mind this cannot be a group automorphism because at the very least an automorphism must map the identity onto itself in order to satisfy $f(acdot b)=f(a)circ f(b)$.



Clearly $f$ does not yield distinct inverses.



Is $f$ therefore an endomorphism instead?



In part, I'm asking whether an endomorphism on a torsion group can have a kernel with infinite cardinality - what with the elements themselves having finite order and all.



I'm asking with half an eye on groups of intermediate growth such as the Grigorchuk group, and any torsion group structure on which variants of the Collatz function might be an endomorphism.










share|cite|improve this question















Let $f:Gto G$ be a surjection from a torsion group $G$ onto itself.



Let the kernel have infinite cardinality: $lvertker(f)rvert=aleph_0$




What category of function on groups is this?




To my mind this cannot be a group automorphism because at the very least an automorphism must map the identity onto itself in order to satisfy $f(acdot b)=f(a)circ f(b)$.



Clearly $f$ does not yield distinct inverses.



Is $f$ therefore an endomorphism instead?



In part, I'm asking whether an endomorphism on a torsion group can have a kernel with infinite cardinality - what with the elements themselves having finite order and all.



I'm asking with half an eye on groups of intermediate growth such as the Grigorchuk group, and any torsion group structure on which variants of the Collatz function might be an endomorphism.







group-theory group-homomorphism torsion-groups






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited Nov 20 at 12:13

























asked Nov 20 at 10:50









Robert Frost

4,21811039




4,21811039








  • 1




    Well, the trivial homomorphism is an endomorphism with infinite cardinality if the group is infinite...
    – DonAntonio
    Nov 20 at 11:05






  • 2




    Anyway if you actualy meant "epimorphism" then there still can be an epimorphism $Gto G$ with infinite kernel. Take $G=bigoplus_{i=1}^{infty} mathbb{Z}_2$ and map $(x_1,x_2,x_3,x_4,ldots)$ to $(x_1, x_3, x_5, x_7,ldots)$.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 11:11








  • 1




    So you are looking for non-Hopfian torsion groups. It's easy to construct examples such as the direct product of infinitely many copies of the same finite group. The question would be more interesting if you assumed that $G$ is finitely generated. I don't know immediately whether there are any such examples.
    – Derek Holt
    Nov 20 at 11:13








  • 1




    Grigorchuck group would not work since every quotient is finite. I don't know of any finitely generated non hopfian torsion groups(they could exist, but it might be an open problem if they do too)
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 20 at 11:35






  • 1




    @RobertFrost Yes, formally $mathbb{Z}_2=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$ is the group of integers modulo $2$. The finite group of $2$ elements.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 12:23
















  • 1




    Well, the trivial homomorphism is an endomorphism with infinite cardinality if the group is infinite...
    – DonAntonio
    Nov 20 at 11:05






  • 2




    Anyway if you actualy meant "epimorphism" then there still can be an epimorphism $Gto G$ with infinite kernel. Take $G=bigoplus_{i=1}^{infty} mathbb{Z}_2$ and map $(x_1,x_2,x_3,x_4,ldots)$ to $(x_1, x_3, x_5, x_7,ldots)$.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 11:11








  • 1




    So you are looking for non-Hopfian torsion groups. It's easy to construct examples such as the direct product of infinitely many copies of the same finite group. The question would be more interesting if you assumed that $G$ is finitely generated. I don't know immediately whether there are any such examples.
    – Derek Holt
    Nov 20 at 11:13








  • 1




    Grigorchuck group would not work since every quotient is finite. I don't know of any finitely generated non hopfian torsion groups(they could exist, but it might be an open problem if they do too)
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 20 at 11:35






  • 1




    @RobertFrost Yes, formally $mathbb{Z}_2=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$ is the group of integers modulo $2$. The finite group of $2$ elements.
    – freakish
    Nov 20 at 12:23










1




1




Well, the trivial homomorphism is an endomorphism with infinite cardinality if the group is infinite...
– DonAntonio
Nov 20 at 11:05




Well, the trivial homomorphism is an endomorphism with infinite cardinality if the group is infinite...
– DonAntonio
Nov 20 at 11:05




2




2




Anyway if you actualy meant "epimorphism" then there still can be an epimorphism $Gto G$ with infinite kernel. Take $G=bigoplus_{i=1}^{infty} mathbb{Z}_2$ and map $(x_1,x_2,x_3,x_4,ldots)$ to $(x_1, x_3, x_5, x_7,ldots)$.
– freakish
Nov 20 at 11:11






Anyway if you actualy meant "epimorphism" then there still can be an epimorphism $Gto G$ with infinite kernel. Take $G=bigoplus_{i=1}^{infty} mathbb{Z}_2$ and map $(x_1,x_2,x_3,x_4,ldots)$ to $(x_1, x_3, x_5, x_7,ldots)$.
– freakish
Nov 20 at 11:11






1




1




So you are looking for non-Hopfian torsion groups. It's easy to construct examples such as the direct product of infinitely many copies of the same finite group. The question would be more interesting if you assumed that $G$ is finitely generated. I don't know immediately whether there are any such examples.
– Derek Holt
Nov 20 at 11:13






So you are looking for non-Hopfian torsion groups. It's easy to construct examples such as the direct product of infinitely many copies of the same finite group. The question would be more interesting if you assumed that $G$ is finitely generated. I don't know immediately whether there are any such examples.
– Derek Holt
Nov 20 at 11:13






1




1




Grigorchuck group would not work since every quotient is finite. I don't know of any finitely generated non hopfian torsion groups(they could exist, but it might be an open problem if they do too)
– Paul Plummer
Nov 20 at 11:35




Grigorchuck group would not work since every quotient is finite. I don't know of any finitely generated non hopfian torsion groups(they could exist, but it might be an open problem if they do too)
– Paul Plummer
Nov 20 at 11:35




1




1




@RobertFrost Yes, formally $mathbb{Z}_2=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$ is the group of integers modulo $2$. The finite group of $2$ elements.
– freakish
Nov 20 at 12:23






@RobertFrost Yes, formally $mathbb{Z}_2=mathbb{Z}/2mathbb{Z}$ is the group of integers modulo $2$. The finite group of $2$ elements.
– freakish
Nov 20 at 12:23












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote



accepted










I don't think there is an accepted name to those types of functions except for saying what they are: surjective homomorphism with some specified size of kernel. You can say surjective endomorphism, or epic endomorphsims(which sounds sort of cool). The endomorphism means it is a morphism between the same object. In the category of groups surjective morphisms and epimorphism/epic morphism are the same(in general they are nor the same thing).



You mention your motiviation is studying torsion groups of intermediate growth(so finitely generated) with a function like the above. As far as I can tell, it is not known if such torsion f.g. groups exist even without the condition of intermediate growth. The Grigorchuck group does not have any homomorphism like that since it is just infinite which is an infinite group where all proper quotients are finite.



Without finitely generated condition there are groups like that, for example $ bigoplus_{i in mathbb N} mathbb Z / 2 mathbb Z$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 20:43






  • 1




    Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 21:52












  • A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 21:59






  • 1




    @RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:05








  • 1




    @RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:28











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1 Answer
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up vote
1
down vote



accepted










I don't think there is an accepted name to those types of functions except for saying what they are: surjective homomorphism with some specified size of kernel. You can say surjective endomorphism, or epic endomorphsims(which sounds sort of cool). The endomorphism means it is a morphism between the same object. In the category of groups surjective morphisms and epimorphism/epic morphism are the same(in general they are nor the same thing).



You mention your motiviation is studying torsion groups of intermediate growth(so finitely generated) with a function like the above. As far as I can tell, it is not known if such torsion f.g. groups exist even without the condition of intermediate growth. The Grigorchuck group does not have any homomorphism like that since it is just infinite which is an infinite group where all proper quotients are finite.



Without finitely generated condition there are groups like that, for example $ bigoplus_{i in mathbb N} mathbb Z / 2 mathbb Z$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 20:43






  • 1




    Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 21:52












  • A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 21:59






  • 1




    @RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:05








  • 1




    @RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:28















up vote
1
down vote



accepted










I don't think there is an accepted name to those types of functions except for saying what they are: surjective homomorphism with some specified size of kernel. You can say surjective endomorphism, or epic endomorphsims(which sounds sort of cool). The endomorphism means it is a morphism between the same object. In the category of groups surjective morphisms and epimorphism/epic morphism are the same(in general they are nor the same thing).



You mention your motiviation is studying torsion groups of intermediate growth(so finitely generated) with a function like the above. As far as I can tell, it is not known if such torsion f.g. groups exist even without the condition of intermediate growth. The Grigorchuck group does not have any homomorphism like that since it is just infinite which is an infinite group where all proper quotients are finite.



Without finitely generated condition there are groups like that, for example $ bigoplus_{i in mathbb N} mathbb Z / 2 mathbb Z$.






share|cite|improve this answer





















  • Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 20:43






  • 1




    Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 21:52












  • A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 21:59






  • 1




    @RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:05








  • 1




    @RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:28













up vote
1
down vote



accepted







up vote
1
down vote



accepted






I don't think there is an accepted name to those types of functions except for saying what they are: surjective homomorphism with some specified size of kernel. You can say surjective endomorphism, or epic endomorphsims(which sounds sort of cool). The endomorphism means it is a morphism between the same object. In the category of groups surjective morphisms and epimorphism/epic morphism are the same(in general they are nor the same thing).



You mention your motiviation is studying torsion groups of intermediate growth(so finitely generated) with a function like the above. As far as I can tell, it is not known if such torsion f.g. groups exist even without the condition of intermediate growth. The Grigorchuck group does not have any homomorphism like that since it is just infinite which is an infinite group where all proper quotients are finite.



Without finitely generated condition there are groups like that, for example $ bigoplus_{i in mathbb N} mathbb Z / 2 mathbb Z$.






share|cite|improve this answer












I don't think there is an accepted name to those types of functions except for saying what they are: surjective homomorphism with some specified size of kernel. You can say surjective endomorphism, or epic endomorphsims(which sounds sort of cool). The endomorphism means it is a morphism between the same object. In the category of groups surjective morphisms and epimorphism/epic morphism are the same(in general they are nor the same thing).



You mention your motiviation is studying torsion groups of intermediate growth(so finitely generated) with a function like the above. As far as I can tell, it is not known if such torsion f.g. groups exist even without the condition of intermediate growth. The Grigorchuck group does not have any homomorphism like that since it is just infinite which is an infinite group where all proper quotients are finite.



Without finitely generated condition there are groups like that, for example $ bigoplus_{i in mathbb N} mathbb Z / 2 mathbb Z$.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Nov 21 at 19:21









Paul Plummer

5,18721950




5,18721950












  • Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 20:43






  • 1




    Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 21:52












  • A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 21:59






  • 1




    @RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:05








  • 1




    @RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:28


















  • Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 20:43






  • 1




    Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 21:52












  • A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
    – Robert Frost
    Nov 21 at 21:59






  • 1




    @RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:05








  • 1




    @RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
    – Paul Plummer
    Nov 21 at 22:28
















Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
– Robert Frost
Nov 21 at 20:43




Thanks. The critical thing I drew from the comments which isn't in this answer was that this is a non-isomorphic epimorphism and therefore the group would be non Hopfian. I suspect the object I'm trying to construct is more likely akin to your infinitely generated example though.
– Robert Frost
Nov 21 at 20:43




1




1




Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
– Paul Plummer
Nov 21 at 21:52






Sure, that is the definition of non-hopfian group. I didn't bring it up since you didn't ask about it in the question(just what to call such f), although it is good to mention. There are plenty of finitely generated non-hopfian groups, just don't know of any torsion examples(and I think it is probably an open question if such exist).
– Paul Plummer
Nov 21 at 21:52














A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
– Robert Frost
Nov 21 at 21:59




A direct product was mentioned but I guess what you show here is an infinite sum. Then I guess either would suffice?
– Robert Frost
Nov 21 at 21:59




1




1




@RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
– Paul Plummer
Nov 21 at 22:05






@RobertFrost You could do something similar with direct products, but the easy maps give uncountable kernel(I actually wouldn't be surprised if any such mapping must have uncountable kernel or finite kernel when dealing with infinite products).
– Paul Plummer
Nov 21 at 22:05






1




1




@RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
– Paul Plummer
Nov 21 at 22:28




@RobertFrost Another word about infinite product case is that there is a natural topology(the product topology) to put on such groups and frequently homomorphisms between such groups are forced to be continuous in this topology. This is called automatic continuity. As an example, it can be used to prove infinite product of integers is not free abelian (even though in the finite case they are). This continuity frequently means kernels will be very large or small.
– Paul Plummer
Nov 21 at 22:28


















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