Why does the Doctor not believe in Satan?
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In S011E08, the Doctor says, offhandedly, that she's "not a great believer in Satan."
However, in "The Impossible Planet" and "The Satan Pit," the Doctor met the Beast, which, while not precisely the same entity as the one from Abrahamic lore, has the general physical appearance, possesses people, and basically calls itself Satan.
She also must have heard about its son, Abbadon, from Captain Jack Harkness.
Why, then, does the Doctor say this?
doctor-who
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
favorite
In S011E08, the Doctor says, offhandedly, that she's "not a great believer in Satan."
However, in "The Impossible Planet" and "The Satan Pit," the Doctor met the Beast, which, while not precisely the same entity as the one from Abrahamic lore, has the general physical appearance, possesses people, and basically calls itself Satan.
She also must have heard about its son, Abbadon, from Captain Jack Harkness.
Why, then, does the Doctor say this?
doctor-who
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
2
Maybe the new writer wants to ignore those stories, feeling them to be too religious.
– Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Nov 26 at 9:11
8
I haven't seen the episode so this is speculation based on the context in this question. Saying she's "not a great believer in Satan" doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him at all. Also it could mean she's not a [great] follower of Satan.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 26 at 9:50
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
favorite
up vote
23
down vote
favorite
In S011E08, the Doctor says, offhandedly, that she's "not a great believer in Satan."
However, in "The Impossible Planet" and "The Satan Pit," the Doctor met the Beast, which, while not precisely the same entity as the one from Abrahamic lore, has the general physical appearance, possesses people, and basically calls itself Satan.
She also must have heard about its son, Abbadon, from Captain Jack Harkness.
Why, then, does the Doctor say this?
doctor-who
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
In S011E08, the Doctor says, offhandedly, that she's "not a great believer in Satan."
However, in "The Impossible Planet" and "The Satan Pit," the Doctor met the Beast, which, while not precisely the same entity as the one from Abrahamic lore, has the general physical appearance, possesses people, and basically calls itself Satan.
She also must have heard about its son, Abbadon, from Captain Jack Harkness.
Why, then, does the Doctor say this?
doctor-who
doctor-who
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
edited Nov 26 at 7:23
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
asked Nov 26 at 7:06
Adamant
83.1k21333442
83.1k21333442
2
Maybe the new writer wants to ignore those stories, feeling them to be too religious.
– Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Nov 26 at 9:11
8
I haven't seen the episode so this is speculation based on the context in this question. Saying she's "not a great believer in Satan" doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him at all. Also it could mean she's not a [great] follower of Satan.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 26 at 9:50
add a comment |
2
Maybe the new writer wants to ignore those stories, feeling them to be too religious.
– Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Nov 26 at 9:11
8
I haven't seen the episode so this is speculation based on the context in this question. Saying she's "not a great believer in Satan" doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him at all. Also it could mean she's not a [great] follower of Satan.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 26 at 9:50
2
2
Maybe the new writer wants to ignore those stories, feeling them to be too religious.
– Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Nov 26 at 9:11
Maybe the new writer wants to ignore those stories, feeling them to be too religious.
– Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Nov 26 at 9:11
8
8
I haven't seen the episode so this is speculation based on the context in this question. Saying she's "not a great believer in Satan" doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him at all. Also it could mean she's not a [great] follower of Satan.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 26 at 9:50
I haven't seen the episode so this is speculation based on the context in this question. Saying she's "not a great believer in Satan" doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him at all. Also it could mean she's not a [great] follower of Satan.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 26 at 9:50
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
up vote
40
down vote
accepted
Because even in the episode "The Satan Pit", the Doctor refuses to accept that this being really is Satan.
I accept that you exist. I don't have to accept what you are, but your physical existence, I'll give you that
And from the end of the episode
Rose: What do you think it was, really?
Doctor: I think... we beat it. That's good enough for me.
While he refers to having encountered Satan in Series 4, this seemed to be more for the purposes of showing off (like Sarah Jane referring to the Loch Ness Monster in Series 2) than him actually accepting the creature's identity.
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
19
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
26
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
1
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
43
down vote
I'm guessing she's referring directly to the Abrahamic Satan. She doesn't believe in him because she knows he's just an idea resulting from the mental projection of The Beast, who is basically just an extremely powerful alien.
If miracles by Angels turned out to be the work of angelic-appearing aliens, I would say I don't believe in Angels because I know the true source (even if they are effectively the same).
I should note that when I say "Angels" I mean the bible ones, not the statue ones.
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
76
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
5
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
7
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
|
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up vote
4
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To the Doctor, the Beast does not qualify as a supernatural devil-figure, not even if it might have been the entity identified as "Satan" in human Christianity, and not even if it might have been the root of all the evil on Earth or all the evil within Mutter's Spiral Galaxy. A Time Lord's understanding is deeper than that, and her horizons are broader. Gallifreyan science probably includes everything the Beast was capable of in its conception of "natural". Also, she's been places where the local evil had nothing to do with the Beast. Lots of them, I'd imagine.
This is an application of the converse of the oft-quoted Clarke adage that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." If you appear to be a supernatural being even to a Time Lord, you're probably indistinguishable from Cantor's Absolute Infinite.
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
3
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
1
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
1
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
|
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2
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The Doctors problem is with this philosophical framework. Even if she knew for a fact the beast from Satan's Pit actually was the same one from Abrahamic Lore, and yes she's met actual magic wielding witches in The Shakespeare Code, her problem isn't about identity. It's about labels. "I don't like her, so she's either a witch I can hang, or an innocent soul I can save by drowning her now before she falls into Satan's grasp."
The Doctor is desperately trying to get them out of this incredibly convenient so-long-as-you're-in-power framework of thinking so that they can help her save the world from a muddy end. The Doctor needs companions. Ones that think. Not ones that use labels as an excuse to turn off their brain.
So I don't think Satan is at the top of her list of fun famous names to awkwardly drop into a casual conversation with a witch hunting King James.
"Satan? Oh I've met him. He can get in your head and doodle on your face but mud's not really his style".
No. Just no.
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
1
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
1
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
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1
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The linguistic point missed by the other (far more knowledgable) answers is that if I say "I believe in love" or "I believe in the power of love", I don't mean I accept the existence of 'love': I mean that I believe it love the capacity to transform people and their interactions, with far-reaching consequences cascading down timelines.
So by saying they're not a "great believer" in Satan, the Doctor conveys that whatever else is the case [mainly what @Parrotmaster wrote and its first comment by @BinaryWorrier, as well as the accepted answer], this Satan guy isn't as high on their list as say Daleks.
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
add a comment |
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
40
down vote
accepted
Because even in the episode "The Satan Pit", the Doctor refuses to accept that this being really is Satan.
I accept that you exist. I don't have to accept what you are, but your physical existence, I'll give you that
And from the end of the episode
Rose: What do you think it was, really?
Doctor: I think... we beat it. That's good enough for me.
While he refers to having encountered Satan in Series 4, this seemed to be more for the purposes of showing off (like Sarah Jane referring to the Loch Ness Monster in Series 2) than him actually accepting the creature's identity.
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
19
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
26
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
1
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
40
down vote
accepted
Because even in the episode "The Satan Pit", the Doctor refuses to accept that this being really is Satan.
I accept that you exist. I don't have to accept what you are, but your physical existence, I'll give you that
And from the end of the episode
Rose: What do you think it was, really?
Doctor: I think... we beat it. That's good enough for me.
While he refers to having encountered Satan in Series 4, this seemed to be more for the purposes of showing off (like Sarah Jane referring to the Loch Ness Monster in Series 2) than him actually accepting the creature's identity.
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
19
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
26
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
1
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
40
down vote
accepted
up vote
40
down vote
accepted
Because even in the episode "The Satan Pit", the Doctor refuses to accept that this being really is Satan.
I accept that you exist. I don't have to accept what you are, but your physical existence, I'll give you that
And from the end of the episode
Rose: What do you think it was, really?
Doctor: I think... we beat it. That's good enough for me.
While he refers to having encountered Satan in Series 4, this seemed to be more for the purposes of showing off (like Sarah Jane referring to the Loch Ness Monster in Series 2) than him actually accepting the creature's identity.
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
Because even in the episode "The Satan Pit", the Doctor refuses to accept that this being really is Satan.
I accept that you exist. I don't have to accept what you are, but your physical existence, I'll give you that
And from the end of the episode
Rose: What do you think it was, really?
Doctor: I think... we beat it. That's good enough for me.
While he refers to having encountered Satan in Series 4, this seemed to be more for the purposes of showing off (like Sarah Jane referring to the Loch Ness Monster in Series 2) than him actually accepting the creature's identity.
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
answered Nov 26 at 15:55
JTPenguin
62124
62124
19
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
26
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
1
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
|
show 1 more comment
19
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
26
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
1
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
19
19
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
If it walks like a Satan, and talks like a Satan...
– Chloe
Nov 26 at 23:14
26
26
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
@Chloe -... Therefore...a witch?
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 2:03
1
1
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@Chloe You could say the same for the Daemons. Or the Siren. Or really quite a lot of "myths and legends" that have appeared in Doctor Who over the decades in various forms of media. That's what the 10th Doctor was alluding to when he says "I've seen fake gods and bad gods and demi-gods and would-be gods..."
– JTPenguin
Nov 27 at 14:29
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
@JTPenguin - You could, exactly. I like Doctor Who as a good science fantasy show. It's when it starts going for a hard-science outlook despite it not being consistent that it gets weird.
– Adamant
Nov 27 at 18:05
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
Actually, most serious and educated Christians wouldn't see such a being as Satan either. This popular depiction of Satan, with horns and red skin and fangs comes from popular culture, not the Bible.
– vsz
Nov 29 at 7:07
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
43
down vote
I'm guessing she's referring directly to the Abrahamic Satan. She doesn't believe in him because she knows he's just an idea resulting from the mental projection of The Beast, who is basically just an extremely powerful alien.
If miracles by Angels turned out to be the work of angelic-appearing aliens, I would say I don't believe in Angels because I know the true source (even if they are effectively the same).
I should note that when I say "Angels" I mean the bible ones, not the statue ones.
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
76
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
5
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
7
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
43
down vote
I'm guessing she's referring directly to the Abrahamic Satan. She doesn't believe in him because she knows he's just an idea resulting from the mental projection of The Beast, who is basically just an extremely powerful alien.
If miracles by Angels turned out to be the work of angelic-appearing aliens, I would say I don't believe in Angels because I know the true source (even if they are effectively the same).
I should note that when I say "Angels" I mean the bible ones, not the statue ones.
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
76
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
5
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
7
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
43
down vote
up vote
43
down vote
I'm guessing she's referring directly to the Abrahamic Satan. She doesn't believe in him because she knows he's just an idea resulting from the mental projection of The Beast, who is basically just an extremely powerful alien.
If miracles by Angels turned out to be the work of angelic-appearing aliens, I would say I don't believe in Angels because I know the true source (even if they are effectively the same).
I should note that when I say "Angels" I mean the bible ones, not the statue ones.
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
I'm guessing she's referring directly to the Abrahamic Satan. She doesn't believe in him because she knows he's just an idea resulting from the mental projection of The Beast, who is basically just an extremely powerful alien.
If miracles by Angels turned out to be the work of angelic-appearing aliens, I would say I don't believe in Angels because I know the true source (even if they are effectively the same).
I should note that when I say "Angels" I mean the bible ones, not the statue ones.
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
edited Nov 26 at 13:07
TheLethalCarrot
37.7k15203247
37.7k15203247
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
answered Nov 26 at 10:26
Parrotmaster
1,2772813
1,2772813
76
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
5
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
7
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
|
show 2 more comments
76
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
5
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
7
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
76
76
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
+1 Terry Pratchett Wizards don't believe in gods in the same way that most people don't find it necessary to believe in, say, tables. They know they're there, they know they're there for a purpose, they'd probably agree that they have a place in a well-organised universe, but they wouldn't see the point of believing, of going around saying "O great table, without whom we are as naught." Anyway, either the gods are there whether you believe in them or not, or exist only as a function of the belief, so either way you might as well ignore the whole business and, as it were, eat off your knees.
– Binary Worrier
Nov 26 at 10:46
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
Saying you don't believe in Satan because he doesn't live underground seems like quibbling to me. A lot of people thought supernatural beings literally resided in the heavens, back in the day.
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:00
5
5
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
@Adamant: The important point is that it ISN'T supernatural, just as for instance a giant squid isn't, however exotic it might seem to land-based mammals.
– jamesqf
Nov 26 at 18:16
7
7
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
@Adamant This is already a show about a spacefaring, time-travelling, body-transforming, immortal being who happens to end up on Earth between 1850 and 2100 a stunning proportion of the time. The only thing scientific about any of it is writer fiat. The Doctor presumably doesn't believe the religious trappings that go with "Satan", even if based on a real thing. I don't believe that Captain Jack Sparrow is a real person, even while I believe that Johnny Depp exists.
– Upper_Case
Nov 26 at 22:14
1
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– Null♦
Nov 27 at 18:05
|
show 2 more comments
up vote
4
down vote
To the Doctor, the Beast does not qualify as a supernatural devil-figure, not even if it might have been the entity identified as "Satan" in human Christianity, and not even if it might have been the root of all the evil on Earth or all the evil within Mutter's Spiral Galaxy. A Time Lord's understanding is deeper than that, and her horizons are broader. Gallifreyan science probably includes everything the Beast was capable of in its conception of "natural". Also, she's been places where the local evil had nothing to do with the Beast. Lots of them, I'd imagine.
This is an application of the converse of the oft-quoted Clarke adage that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." If you appear to be a supernatural being even to a Time Lord, you're probably indistinguishable from Cantor's Absolute Infinite.
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
3
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
1
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
1
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
4
down vote
To the Doctor, the Beast does not qualify as a supernatural devil-figure, not even if it might have been the entity identified as "Satan" in human Christianity, and not even if it might have been the root of all the evil on Earth or all the evil within Mutter's Spiral Galaxy. A Time Lord's understanding is deeper than that, and her horizons are broader. Gallifreyan science probably includes everything the Beast was capable of in its conception of "natural". Also, she's been places where the local evil had nothing to do with the Beast. Lots of them, I'd imagine.
This is an application of the converse of the oft-quoted Clarke adage that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." If you appear to be a supernatural being even to a Time Lord, you're probably indistinguishable from Cantor's Absolute Infinite.
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
3
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
1
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
1
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
To the Doctor, the Beast does not qualify as a supernatural devil-figure, not even if it might have been the entity identified as "Satan" in human Christianity, and not even if it might have been the root of all the evil on Earth or all the evil within Mutter's Spiral Galaxy. A Time Lord's understanding is deeper than that, and her horizons are broader. Gallifreyan science probably includes everything the Beast was capable of in its conception of "natural". Also, she's been places where the local evil had nothing to do with the Beast. Lots of them, I'd imagine.
This is an application of the converse of the oft-quoted Clarke adage that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." If you appear to be a supernatural being even to a Time Lord, you're probably indistinguishable from Cantor's Absolute Infinite.
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
To the Doctor, the Beast does not qualify as a supernatural devil-figure, not even if it might have been the entity identified as "Satan" in human Christianity, and not even if it might have been the root of all the evil on Earth or all the evil within Mutter's Spiral Galaxy. A Time Lord's understanding is deeper than that, and her horizons are broader. Gallifreyan science probably includes everything the Beast was capable of in its conception of "natural". Also, she's been places where the local evil had nothing to do with the Beast. Lots of them, I'd imagine.
This is an application of the converse of the oft-quoted Clarke adage that "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." If you appear to be a supernatural being even to a Time Lord, you're probably indistinguishable from Cantor's Absolute Infinite.
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
edited Nov 27 at 16:04
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
answered Nov 26 at 20:35
zwol
1,645519
1,645519
3
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
1
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
1
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
|
show 1 more comment
3
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
1
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
1
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
3
3
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
Satan is the tempter, not the root of all evil.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 1:33
1
1
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
@RonJohn That depends on which theology we're using, and I don't think it affects my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 13:11
1
1
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
How many theologies of Satan are there? Whether or not you believe the Bible is True, it's pretty clear that Satan's purpose is to tempt people using their own greed and selfishness (which is the root of all evil, according to 1 Timothy 6:10), not to be the root of all evil. Thus, your answer is theologically wrong.
– RonJohn
Nov 27 at 15:28
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn Broaden your horizons beyond Christianity. And it still doesn't affect my point.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 15:53
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
@RonJohn ... however, I have attempted to clarify what I mean with the first few sentences.
– zwol
Nov 27 at 16:05
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
2
down vote
The Doctors problem is with this philosophical framework. Even if she knew for a fact the beast from Satan's Pit actually was the same one from Abrahamic Lore, and yes she's met actual magic wielding witches in The Shakespeare Code, her problem isn't about identity. It's about labels. "I don't like her, so she's either a witch I can hang, or an innocent soul I can save by drowning her now before she falls into Satan's grasp."
The Doctor is desperately trying to get them out of this incredibly convenient so-long-as-you're-in-power framework of thinking so that they can help her save the world from a muddy end. The Doctor needs companions. Ones that think. Not ones that use labels as an excuse to turn off their brain.
So I don't think Satan is at the top of her list of fun famous names to awkwardly drop into a casual conversation with a witch hunting King James.
"Satan? Oh I've met him. He can get in your head and doodle on your face but mud's not really his style".
No. Just no.
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
1
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
1
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
The Doctors problem is with this philosophical framework. Even if she knew for a fact the beast from Satan's Pit actually was the same one from Abrahamic Lore, and yes she's met actual magic wielding witches in The Shakespeare Code, her problem isn't about identity. It's about labels. "I don't like her, so she's either a witch I can hang, or an innocent soul I can save by drowning her now before she falls into Satan's grasp."
The Doctor is desperately trying to get them out of this incredibly convenient so-long-as-you're-in-power framework of thinking so that they can help her save the world from a muddy end. The Doctor needs companions. Ones that think. Not ones that use labels as an excuse to turn off their brain.
So I don't think Satan is at the top of her list of fun famous names to awkwardly drop into a casual conversation with a witch hunting King James.
"Satan? Oh I've met him. He can get in your head and doodle on your face but mud's not really his style".
No. Just no.
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
1
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
1
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
The Doctors problem is with this philosophical framework. Even if she knew for a fact the beast from Satan's Pit actually was the same one from Abrahamic Lore, and yes she's met actual magic wielding witches in The Shakespeare Code, her problem isn't about identity. It's about labels. "I don't like her, so she's either a witch I can hang, or an innocent soul I can save by drowning her now before she falls into Satan's grasp."
The Doctor is desperately trying to get them out of this incredibly convenient so-long-as-you're-in-power framework of thinking so that they can help her save the world from a muddy end. The Doctor needs companions. Ones that think. Not ones that use labels as an excuse to turn off their brain.
So I don't think Satan is at the top of her list of fun famous names to awkwardly drop into a casual conversation with a witch hunting King James.
"Satan? Oh I've met him. He can get in your head and doodle on your face but mud's not really his style".
No. Just no.
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
The Doctors problem is with this philosophical framework. Even if she knew for a fact the beast from Satan's Pit actually was the same one from Abrahamic Lore, and yes she's met actual magic wielding witches in The Shakespeare Code, her problem isn't about identity. It's about labels. "I don't like her, so she's either a witch I can hang, or an innocent soul I can save by drowning her now before she falls into Satan's grasp."
The Doctor is desperately trying to get them out of this incredibly convenient so-long-as-you're-in-power framework of thinking so that they can help her save the world from a muddy end. The Doctor needs companions. Ones that think. Not ones that use labels as an excuse to turn off their brain.
So I don't think Satan is at the top of her list of fun famous names to awkwardly drop into a casual conversation with a witch hunting King James.
"Satan? Oh I've met him. He can get in your head and doodle on your face but mud's not really his style".
No. Just no.
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
answered Nov 26 at 17:43
candied_orange
24919
24919
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
1
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
1
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
add a comment |
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
1
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
1
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
If you're trying to get people to think rationally, doesn't that not mean hiding reality from them?
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 18:05
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
@Adamant Getting people to think rationally is about not hiding their reality from them. That which they can observe. A rational thinker wouldn't believe that there was a buoy at (0, 0) just because I said so, for instance.
– wizzwizz4
Nov 26 at 18:45
1
1
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
They might if you were both in the Coast Guard. ;)
– Adamant
Nov 26 at 19:11
1
1
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
Context, it's not just a thing, it's everything
– Morgen
Nov 27 at 5:52
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
The linguistic point missed by the other (far more knowledgable) answers is that if I say "I believe in love" or "I believe in the power of love", I don't mean I accept the existence of 'love': I mean that I believe it love the capacity to transform people and their interactions, with far-reaching consequences cascading down timelines.
So by saying they're not a "great believer" in Satan, the Doctor conveys that whatever else is the case [mainly what @Parrotmaster wrote and its first comment by @BinaryWorrier, as well as the accepted answer], this Satan guy isn't as high on their list as say Daleks.
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
The linguistic point missed by the other (far more knowledgable) answers is that if I say "I believe in love" or "I believe in the power of love", I don't mean I accept the existence of 'love': I mean that I believe it love the capacity to transform people and their interactions, with far-reaching consequences cascading down timelines.
So by saying they're not a "great believer" in Satan, the Doctor conveys that whatever else is the case [mainly what @Parrotmaster wrote and its first comment by @BinaryWorrier, as well as the accepted answer], this Satan guy isn't as high on their list as say Daleks.
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
The linguistic point missed by the other (far more knowledgable) answers is that if I say "I believe in love" or "I believe in the power of love", I don't mean I accept the existence of 'love': I mean that I believe it love the capacity to transform people and their interactions, with far-reaching consequences cascading down timelines.
So by saying they're not a "great believer" in Satan, the Doctor conveys that whatever else is the case [mainly what @Parrotmaster wrote and its first comment by @BinaryWorrier, as well as the accepted answer], this Satan guy isn't as high on their list as say Daleks.
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
The linguistic point missed by the other (far more knowledgable) answers is that if I say "I believe in love" or "I believe in the power of love", I don't mean I accept the existence of 'love': I mean that I believe it love the capacity to transform people and their interactions, with far-reaching consequences cascading down timelines.
So by saying they're not a "great believer" in Satan, the Doctor conveys that whatever else is the case [mainly what @Parrotmaster wrote and its first comment by @BinaryWorrier, as well as the accepted answer], this Satan guy isn't as high on their list as say Daleks.
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
answered Nov 28 at 11:24
user3445853
1111
1111
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
add a comment |
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
You have a slight mistake in the sentence here " I mean that I believe it love the capacity" caused by the "it" I think but I'm not sure what you meant to say.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 28 at 11:27
add a comment |
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Maybe the new writer wants to ignore those stories, feeling them to be too religious.
– Klaus Æ. Mogensen
Nov 26 at 9:11
8
I haven't seen the episode so this is speculation based on the context in this question. Saying she's "not a great believer in Satan" doesn't mean she doesn't believe in him at all. Also it could mean she's not a [great] follower of Satan.
– TheLethalCarrot
Nov 26 at 9:50