Prove that the product of a rational and irrational number is irrational












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Could you please confirm if this proof is correct?



Theorem: If $q neq 0$ is rational and $y$ is irrational, then $qy$ is irrational.



Proof: Proof by contradiction, we assume that $qy$ is rational. Therefore $qy=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $a$, $b neq 0$. Since $q$ is rational, we have $frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $x neq 0$, $z neq 0$. Therefore, $xy = a$, and $y=frac{a}{x}$. Since both $a$ and $x$ are integers, $y$ is rational, leading to a contradiction.










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  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Looks good but what happened to the $z$ and $b$ in the line $xy = a$?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric O. Korman
    Jun 13 '11 at 12:59










  • $begingroup$
    It's surely not quite correct. For example, you missed factors of $1/z$ and $1/b$ in evaluating or "simplifying" $xy/z=a/b$. Otherwise the logic is OK.
    $endgroup$
    – Luboš Motl
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:01










  • $begingroup$
    You just get the relation $y=frac{za}{xb}$ which is a ratio of integers and therefore rational.
    $endgroup$
    – Beni Bogosel
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:17










  • $begingroup$
    @Eric: Hm, I assumed that if $frac{a}{b}=frac{c}{d}$ then $a=c$. Which is not true...
    $endgroup$
    – persepolis
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:24












  • $begingroup$
    Minor point: this is not a proof by contradiction, you prove that qy is irrational by proving that it is not rational, this is just the definition of being irrational.
    $endgroup$
    – Guillaume Brunerie
    Oct 28 '11 at 16:11
















11












$begingroup$


Could you please confirm if this proof is correct?



Theorem: If $q neq 0$ is rational and $y$ is irrational, then $qy$ is irrational.



Proof: Proof by contradiction, we assume that $qy$ is rational. Therefore $qy=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $a$, $b neq 0$. Since $q$ is rational, we have $frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $x neq 0$, $z neq 0$. Therefore, $xy = a$, and $y=frac{a}{x}$. Since both $a$ and $x$ are integers, $y$ is rational, leading to a contradiction.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Looks good but what happened to the $z$ and $b$ in the line $xy = a$?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric O. Korman
    Jun 13 '11 at 12:59










  • $begingroup$
    It's surely not quite correct. For example, you missed factors of $1/z$ and $1/b$ in evaluating or "simplifying" $xy/z=a/b$. Otherwise the logic is OK.
    $endgroup$
    – Luboš Motl
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:01










  • $begingroup$
    You just get the relation $y=frac{za}{xb}$ which is a ratio of integers and therefore rational.
    $endgroup$
    – Beni Bogosel
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:17










  • $begingroup$
    @Eric: Hm, I assumed that if $frac{a}{b}=frac{c}{d}$ then $a=c$. Which is not true...
    $endgroup$
    – persepolis
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:24












  • $begingroup$
    Minor point: this is not a proof by contradiction, you prove that qy is irrational by proving that it is not rational, this is just the definition of being irrational.
    $endgroup$
    – Guillaume Brunerie
    Oct 28 '11 at 16:11














11












11








11


4



$begingroup$


Could you please confirm if this proof is correct?



Theorem: If $q neq 0$ is rational and $y$ is irrational, then $qy$ is irrational.



Proof: Proof by contradiction, we assume that $qy$ is rational. Therefore $qy=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $a$, $b neq 0$. Since $q$ is rational, we have $frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $x neq 0$, $z neq 0$. Therefore, $xy = a$, and $y=frac{a}{x}$. Since both $a$ and $x$ are integers, $y$ is rational, leading to a contradiction.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




Could you please confirm if this proof is correct?



Theorem: If $q neq 0$ is rational and $y$ is irrational, then $qy$ is irrational.



Proof: Proof by contradiction, we assume that $qy$ is rational. Therefore $qy=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $a$, $b neq 0$. Since $q$ is rational, we have $frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$ for integers $x neq 0$, $z neq 0$. Therefore, $xy = a$, and $y=frac{a}{x}$. Since both $a$ and $x$ are integers, $y$ is rational, leading to a contradiction.







analysis irrational-numbers






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edited Jun 14 '11 at 14:56







user9413

















asked Jun 13 '11 at 12:56









persepolispersepolis

183126




183126








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Looks good but what happened to the $z$ and $b$ in the line $xy = a$?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric O. Korman
    Jun 13 '11 at 12:59










  • $begingroup$
    It's surely not quite correct. For example, you missed factors of $1/z$ and $1/b$ in evaluating or "simplifying" $xy/z=a/b$. Otherwise the logic is OK.
    $endgroup$
    – Luboš Motl
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:01










  • $begingroup$
    You just get the relation $y=frac{za}{xb}$ which is a ratio of integers and therefore rational.
    $endgroup$
    – Beni Bogosel
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:17










  • $begingroup$
    @Eric: Hm, I assumed that if $frac{a}{b}=frac{c}{d}$ then $a=c$. Which is not true...
    $endgroup$
    – persepolis
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:24












  • $begingroup$
    Minor point: this is not a proof by contradiction, you prove that qy is irrational by proving that it is not rational, this is just the definition of being irrational.
    $endgroup$
    – Guillaume Brunerie
    Oct 28 '11 at 16:11














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Looks good but what happened to the $z$ and $b$ in the line $xy = a$?
    $endgroup$
    – Eric O. Korman
    Jun 13 '11 at 12:59










  • $begingroup$
    It's surely not quite correct. For example, you missed factors of $1/z$ and $1/b$ in evaluating or "simplifying" $xy/z=a/b$. Otherwise the logic is OK.
    $endgroup$
    – Luboš Motl
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:01










  • $begingroup$
    You just get the relation $y=frac{za}{xb}$ which is a ratio of integers and therefore rational.
    $endgroup$
    – Beni Bogosel
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:17










  • $begingroup$
    @Eric: Hm, I assumed that if $frac{a}{b}=frac{c}{d}$ then $a=c$. Which is not true...
    $endgroup$
    – persepolis
    Jun 13 '11 at 13:24












  • $begingroup$
    Minor point: this is not a proof by contradiction, you prove that qy is irrational by proving that it is not rational, this is just the definition of being irrational.
    $endgroup$
    – Guillaume Brunerie
    Oct 28 '11 at 16:11








1




1




$begingroup$
Looks good but what happened to the $z$ and $b$ in the line $xy = a$?
$endgroup$
– Eric O. Korman
Jun 13 '11 at 12:59




$begingroup$
Looks good but what happened to the $z$ and $b$ in the line $xy = a$?
$endgroup$
– Eric O. Korman
Jun 13 '11 at 12:59












$begingroup$
It's surely not quite correct. For example, you missed factors of $1/z$ and $1/b$ in evaluating or "simplifying" $xy/z=a/b$. Otherwise the logic is OK.
$endgroup$
– Luboš Motl
Jun 13 '11 at 13:01




$begingroup$
It's surely not quite correct. For example, you missed factors of $1/z$ and $1/b$ in evaluating or "simplifying" $xy/z=a/b$. Otherwise the logic is OK.
$endgroup$
– Luboš Motl
Jun 13 '11 at 13:01












$begingroup$
You just get the relation $y=frac{za}{xb}$ which is a ratio of integers and therefore rational.
$endgroup$
– Beni Bogosel
Jun 13 '11 at 13:17




$begingroup$
You just get the relation $y=frac{za}{xb}$ which is a ratio of integers and therefore rational.
$endgroup$
– Beni Bogosel
Jun 13 '11 at 13:17












$begingroup$
@Eric: Hm, I assumed that if $frac{a}{b}=frac{c}{d}$ then $a=c$. Which is not true...
$endgroup$
– persepolis
Jun 13 '11 at 13:24






$begingroup$
@Eric: Hm, I assumed that if $frac{a}{b}=frac{c}{d}$ then $a=c$. Which is not true...
$endgroup$
– persepolis
Jun 13 '11 at 13:24














$begingroup$
Minor point: this is not a proof by contradiction, you prove that qy is irrational by proving that it is not rational, this is just the definition of being irrational.
$endgroup$
– Guillaume Brunerie
Oct 28 '11 at 16:11




$begingroup$
Minor point: this is not a proof by contradiction, you prove that qy is irrational by proving that it is not rational, this is just the definition of being irrational.
$endgroup$
– Guillaume Brunerie
Oct 28 '11 at 16:11










8 Answers
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5












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It's wrong. You wrote $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$. That is correct. Then you said "Therefore $xy = a$. That is wrong.



You need to solve $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$ for $y$. You get $y = frac{a}{b} cdot frac{z}{x}$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    15












    $begingroup$

    As I mention here frequently, this ubiquitous property is simply an instance of complementary view of the subgroup property, i.e.



    THEOREM $ $ A nonempty subset $rm:S:$ of abelian group $rm:G:$
    comprises a subgroup $rmiff S + bar S = bar S $ where $rm: bar S:$ is the complement of $rm:S:$ in $rm:G$



    Instances of this are ubiquitous in concrete number systems, e.g.



    enter image description here






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      12












      $begingroup$

      You can directly divide by $q$ assuming the fact that $q neq 0$.



      Suppose $qy$ is rational then, you have $qy = frac{m}{n}$ for some $n neq 0$. This says that $y = frac{m}{nq}$ which says that $text{y is rational}$ contradiction.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$





















        8












        $begingroup$

        A group theoretic proof: You know that if $G$ is a group and $Hneq G$ is one of its subgroups then $h in H$ and $y in Gsetminus H$ implies that $hy in Gsetminus H$. Proof: suppose $hy in H$. You know that $h^{-1} in H$, and therefore $y=h^{-1}(hy) in H$. Contradiction.



        In our case, we have the group $(Bbb{R}^*,cdot)$ and its proper subgroup $(Bbb{Q}^*,cdot)$. By the arguments above $q in Bbb{Q}^*$ and $y in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$ implies $qy in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$













        • $begingroup$
          Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
          $endgroup$
          – user9413
          Jun 13 '11 at 13:29












        • $begingroup$
          yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
          $endgroup$
          – Beni Bogosel
          Jun 13 '11 at 13:59










        • $begingroup$
          You are right, great answer :)
          $endgroup$
          – user9413
          Jun 13 '11 at 14:02





















        3












        $begingroup$

        Let's see how we can modify your argument to make it perfect.



        First of all, a minor picky point. You wrote
        $$qy=frac{a}{b} qquadtext{where $a$ and $b$ are integers, with $b ne 0$}$$



        So far, fine.
        Then come your $x$ and $z$. For completeness, you should have said "Let $x$, $z$ be integers such that $q=frac{x}{z}$. Note that neither $x$ nor $z$ is $0$." Basically, you did not say what connection $x/z$ had with $q$, though admittedly any reasonable person would know what you meant. By the way, I probably would have chosen the letters $c$ and $d$ instead of $x$ and $z$.



        Now for the non-picky point. You reached
        $$frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$$
        From that you should have concluded directly that
        $$y=frac{za}{xb}$$
        which ends things, since $za$ and $xb$ are integers.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$





















          1












          $begingroup$

          I don't think it correct. It seems like a good idea to indicate both x as an integer, and z as a non-zero integer. Then you also want to "solve for" y, which as Eric points out, you didn't quite do.






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          $endgroup$





















            0












            $begingroup$

            $$ainmathbb{Q},binmathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q},abinmathbb{Q}implies binmathbb{Q}impliestext{Contradiction}therefore abnotinmathbb{Q}.$$






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            $endgroup$





















              -1












              $begingroup$

              a is irrational, whereas b is rational.(both > 0)



              Q: does the multiplication of a and b result in a rational or irrational number?:



              Proof:



              because b is rational:
              b = u/j where u and j are integers



              Assume ab is rational:
              ab = k/n, where k and n are integers.

              a = k/bn

              a = k/(n(u/j))
              a = jk/un



              before we declared a as irrational, but now it is rational; a contradiction. Therefore ab must be irrational.






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                8 Answers
                8






                active

                oldest

                votes








                8 Answers
                8






                active

                oldest

                votes









                active

                oldest

                votes






                active

                oldest

                votes









                5












                $begingroup$

                It's wrong. You wrote $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$. That is correct. Then you said "Therefore $xy = a$. That is wrong.



                You need to solve $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$ for $y$. You get $y = frac{a}{b} cdot frac{z}{x}$.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$


















                  5












                  $begingroup$

                  It's wrong. You wrote $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$. That is correct. Then you said "Therefore $xy = a$. That is wrong.



                  You need to solve $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$ for $y$. You get $y = frac{a}{b} cdot frac{z}{x}$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$
















                    5












                    5








                    5





                    $begingroup$

                    It's wrong. You wrote $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$. That is correct. Then you said "Therefore $xy = a$. That is wrong.



                    You need to solve $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$ for $y$. You get $y = frac{a}{b} cdot frac{z}{x}$.






                    share|cite|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$



                    It's wrong. You wrote $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$. That is correct. Then you said "Therefore $xy = a$. That is wrong.



                    You need to solve $frac{x}{z}y = frac{a}{b}$ for $y$. You get $y = frac{a}{b} cdot frac{z}{x}$.







                    share|cite|improve this answer












                    share|cite|improve this answer



                    share|cite|improve this answer










                    answered Jun 13 '11 at 14:47









                    Michael HardyMichael Hardy

                    1




                    1























                        15












                        $begingroup$

                        As I mention here frequently, this ubiquitous property is simply an instance of complementary view of the subgroup property, i.e.



                        THEOREM $ $ A nonempty subset $rm:S:$ of abelian group $rm:G:$
                        comprises a subgroup $rmiff S + bar S = bar S $ where $rm: bar S:$ is the complement of $rm:S:$ in $rm:G$



                        Instances of this are ubiquitous in concrete number systems, e.g.



                        enter image description here






                        share|cite|improve this answer











                        $endgroup$


















                          15












                          $begingroup$

                          As I mention here frequently, this ubiquitous property is simply an instance of complementary view of the subgroup property, i.e.



                          THEOREM $ $ A nonempty subset $rm:S:$ of abelian group $rm:G:$
                          comprises a subgroup $rmiff S + bar S = bar S $ where $rm: bar S:$ is the complement of $rm:S:$ in $rm:G$



                          Instances of this are ubiquitous in concrete number systems, e.g.



                          enter image description here






                          share|cite|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$
















                            15












                            15








                            15





                            $begingroup$

                            As I mention here frequently, this ubiquitous property is simply an instance of complementary view of the subgroup property, i.e.



                            THEOREM $ $ A nonempty subset $rm:S:$ of abelian group $rm:G:$
                            comprises a subgroup $rmiff S + bar S = bar S $ where $rm: bar S:$ is the complement of $rm:S:$ in $rm:G$



                            Instances of this are ubiquitous in concrete number systems, e.g.



                            enter image description here






                            share|cite|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$



                            As I mention here frequently, this ubiquitous property is simply an instance of complementary view of the subgroup property, i.e.



                            THEOREM $ $ A nonempty subset $rm:S:$ of abelian group $rm:G:$
                            comprises a subgroup $rmiff S + bar S = bar S $ where $rm: bar S:$ is the complement of $rm:S:$ in $rm:G$



                            Instances of this are ubiquitous in concrete number systems, e.g.



                            enter image description here







                            share|cite|improve this answer














                            share|cite|improve this answer



                            share|cite|improve this answer








                            edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:21









                            Community

                            1




                            1










                            answered Jun 13 '11 at 18:28









                            Bill DubuqueBill Dubuque

                            210k29192640




                            210k29192640























                                12












                                $begingroup$

                                You can directly divide by $q$ assuming the fact that $q neq 0$.



                                Suppose $qy$ is rational then, you have $qy = frac{m}{n}$ for some $n neq 0$. This says that $y = frac{m}{nq}$ which says that $text{y is rational}$ contradiction.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$


















                                  12












                                  $begingroup$

                                  You can directly divide by $q$ assuming the fact that $q neq 0$.



                                  Suppose $qy$ is rational then, you have $qy = frac{m}{n}$ for some $n neq 0$. This says that $y = frac{m}{nq}$ which says that $text{y is rational}$ contradiction.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$
















                                    12












                                    12








                                    12





                                    $begingroup$

                                    You can directly divide by $q$ assuming the fact that $q neq 0$.



                                    Suppose $qy$ is rational then, you have $qy = frac{m}{n}$ for some $n neq 0$. This says that $y = frac{m}{nq}$ which says that $text{y is rational}$ contradiction.






                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                    $endgroup$



                                    You can directly divide by $q$ assuming the fact that $q neq 0$.



                                    Suppose $qy$ is rational then, you have $qy = frac{m}{n}$ for some $n neq 0$. This says that $y = frac{m}{nq}$ which says that $text{y is rational}$ contradiction.







                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                    share|cite|improve this answer










                                    answered Jun 13 '11 at 13:06







                                    user9413






























                                        8












                                        $begingroup$

                                        A group theoretic proof: You know that if $G$ is a group and $Hneq G$ is one of its subgroups then $h in H$ and $y in Gsetminus H$ implies that $hy in Gsetminus H$. Proof: suppose $hy in H$. You know that $h^{-1} in H$, and therefore $y=h^{-1}(hy) in H$. Contradiction.



                                        In our case, we have the group $(Bbb{R}^*,cdot)$ and its proper subgroup $(Bbb{Q}^*,cdot)$. By the arguments above $q in Bbb{Q}^*$ and $y in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$ implies $qy in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$













                                        • $begingroup$
                                          Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:29












                                        • $begingroup$
                                          yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Beni Bogosel
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:59










                                        • $begingroup$
                                          You are right, great answer :)
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 14:02


















                                        8












                                        $begingroup$

                                        A group theoretic proof: You know that if $G$ is a group and $Hneq G$ is one of its subgroups then $h in H$ and $y in Gsetminus H$ implies that $hy in Gsetminus H$. Proof: suppose $hy in H$. You know that $h^{-1} in H$, and therefore $y=h^{-1}(hy) in H$. Contradiction.



                                        In our case, we have the group $(Bbb{R}^*,cdot)$ and its proper subgroup $(Bbb{Q}^*,cdot)$. By the arguments above $q in Bbb{Q}^*$ and $y in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$ implies $qy in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$













                                        • $begingroup$
                                          Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:29












                                        • $begingroup$
                                          yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Beni Bogosel
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:59










                                        • $begingroup$
                                          You are right, great answer :)
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 14:02
















                                        8












                                        8








                                        8





                                        $begingroup$

                                        A group theoretic proof: You know that if $G$ is a group and $Hneq G$ is one of its subgroups then $h in H$ and $y in Gsetminus H$ implies that $hy in Gsetminus H$. Proof: suppose $hy in H$. You know that $h^{-1} in H$, and therefore $y=h^{-1}(hy) in H$. Contradiction.



                                        In our case, we have the group $(Bbb{R}^*,cdot)$ and its proper subgroup $(Bbb{Q}^*,cdot)$. By the arguments above $q in Bbb{Q}^*$ and $y in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$ implies $qy in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$



                                        A group theoretic proof: You know that if $G$ is a group and $Hneq G$ is one of its subgroups then $h in H$ and $y in Gsetminus H$ implies that $hy in Gsetminus H$. Proof: suppose $hy in H$. You know that $h^{-1} in H$, and therefore $y=h^{-1}(hy) in H$. Contradiction.



                                        In our case, we have the group $(Bbb{R}^*,cdot)$ and its proper subgroup $(Bbb{Q}^*,cdot)$. By the arguments above $q in Bbb{Q}^*$ and $y in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$ implies $qy in Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}$.







                                        share|cite|improve this answer












                                        share|cite|improve this answer



                                        share|cite|improve this answer










                                        answered Jun 13 '11 at 13:13









                                        Beni BogoselBeni Bogosel

                                        17.5k346111




                                        17.5k346111












                                        • $begingroup$
                                          Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:29












                                        • $begingroup$
                                          yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Beni Bogosel
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:59










                                        • $begingroup$
                                          You are right, great answer :)
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 14:02




















                                        • $begingroup$
                                          Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:29












                                        • $begingroup$
                                          yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – Beni Bogosel
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 13:59










                                        • $begingroup$
                                          You are right, great answer :)
                                          $endgroup$
                                          – user9413
                                          Jun 13 '11 at 14:02


















                                        $begingroup$
                                        Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – user9413
                                        Jun 13 '11 at 13:29






                                        $begingroup$
                                        Shouldn't it be $mathbb{R}^{ast} setminusmathbb{Q}^{*}$
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – user9413
                                        Jun 13 '11 at 13:29














                                        $begingroup$
                                        yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Beni Bogosel
                                        Jun 13 '11 at 13:59




                                        $begingroup$
                                        yes, but you can see that $Bbb{R}setminus Bbb{Q}=Bbb{R}^*setminus Bbb{Q}^*$.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Beni Bogosel
                                        Jun 13 '11 at 13:59












                                        $begingroup$
                                        You are right, great answer :)
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – user9413
                                        Jun 13 '11 at 14:02






                                        $begingroup$
                                        You are right, great answer :)
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – user9413
                                        Jun 13 '11 at 14:02













                                        3












                                        $begingroup$

                                        Let's see how we can modify your argument to make it perfect.



                                        First of all, a minor picky point. You wrote
                                        $$qy=frac{a}{b} qquadtext{where $a$ and $b$ are integers, with $b ne 0$}$$



                                        So far, fine.
                                        Then come your $x$ and $z$. For completeness, you should have said "Let $x$, $z$ be integers such that $q=frac{x}{z}$. Note that neither $x$ nor $z$ is $0$." Basically, you did not say what connection $x/z$ had with $q$, though admittedly any reasonable person would know what you meant. By the way, I probably would have chosen the letters $c$ and $d$ instead of $x$ and $z$.



                                        Now for the non-picky point. You reached
                                        $$frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$$
                                        From that you should have concluded directly that
                                        $$y=frac{za}{xb}$$
                                        which ends things, since $za$ and $xb$ are integers.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$


















                                          3












                                          $begingroup$

                                          Let's see how we can modify your argument to make it perfect.



                                          First of all, a minor picky point. You wrote
                                          $$qy=frac{a}{b} qquadtext{where $a$ and $b$ are integers, with $b ne 0$}$$



                                          So far, fine.
                                          Then come your $x$ and $z$. For completeness, you should have said "Let $x$, $z$ be integers such that $q=frac{x}{z}$. Note that neither $x$ nor $z$ is $0$." Basically, you did not say what connection $x/z$ had with $q$, though admittedly any reasonable person would know what you meant. By the way, I probably would have chosen the letters $c$ and $d$ instead of $x$ and $z$.



                                          Now for the non-picky point. You reached
                                          $$frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$$
                                          From that you should have concluded directly that
                                          $$y=frac{za}{xb}$$
                                          which ends things, since $za$ and $xb$ are integers.






                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$
















                                            3












                                            3








                                            3





                                            $begingroup$

                                            Let's see how we can modify your argument to make it perfect.



                                            First of all, a minor picky point. You wrote
                                            $$qy=frac{a}{b} qquadtext{where $a$ and $b$ are integers, with $b ne 0$}$$



                                            So far, fine.
                                            Then come your $x$ and $z$. For completeness, you should have said "Let $x$, $z$ be integers such that $q=frac{x}{z}$. Note that neither $x$ nor $z$ is $0$." Basically, you did not say what connection $x/z$ had with $q$, though admittedly any reasonable person would know what you meant. By the way, I probably would have chosen the letters $c$ and $d$ instead of $x$ and $z$.



                                            Now for the non-picky point. You reached
                                            $$frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$$
                                            From that you should have concluded directly that
                                            $$y=frac{za}{xb}$$
                                            which ends things, since $za$ and $xb$ are integers.






                                            share|cite|improve this answer









                                            $endgroup$



                                            Let's see how we can modify your argument to make it perfect.



                                            First of all, a minor picky point. You wrote
                                            $$qy=frac{a}{b} qquadtext{where $a$ and $b$ are integers, with $b ne 0$}$$



                                            So far, fine.
                                            Then come your $x$ and $z$. For completeness, you should have said "Let $x$, $z$ be integers such that $q=frac{x}{z}$. Note that neither $x$ nor $z$ is $0$." Basically, you did not say what connection $x/z$ had with $q$, though admittedly any reasonable person would know what you meant. By the way, I probably would have chosen the letters $c$ and $d$ instead of $x$ and $z$.



                                            Now for the non-picky point. You reached
                                            $$frac{x}{z}y=frac{a}{b}$$
                                            From that you should have concluded directly that
                                            $$y=frac{za}{xb}$$
                                            which ends things, since $za$ and $xb$ are integers.







                                            share|cite|improve this answer












                                            share|cite|improve this answer



                                            share|cite|improve this answer










                                            answered Jun 13 '11 at 14:38









                                            André NicolasAndré Nicolas

                                            452k36425810




                                            452k36425810























                                                1












                                                $begingroup$

                                                I don't think it correct. It seems like a good idea to indicate both x as an integer, and z as a non-zero integer. Then you also want to "solve for" y, which as Eric points out, you didn't quite do.






                                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                                $endgroup$


















                                                  1












                                                  $begingroup$

                                                  I don't think it correct. It seems like a good idea to indicate both x as an integer, and z as a non-zero integer. Then you also want to "solve for" y, which as Eric points out, you didn't quite do.






                                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                                  $endgroup$
















                                                    1












                                                    1








                                                    1





                                                    $begingroup$

                                                    I don't think it correct. It seems like a good idea to indicate both x as an integer, and z as a non-zero integer. Then you also want to "solve for" y, which as Eric points out, you didn't quite do.






                                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                                    $endgroup$



                                                    I don't think it correct. It seems like a good idea to indicate both x as an integer, and z as a non-zero integer. Then you also want to "solve for" y, which as Eric points out, you didn't quite do.







                                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                                    share|cite|improve this answer










                                                    answered Jun 13 '11 at 13:08









                                                    Doug SpoonwoodDoug Spoonwood

                                                    8,00212144




                                                    8,00212144























                                                        0












                                                        $begingroup$

                                                        $$ainmathbb{Q},binmathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q},abinmathbb{Q}implies binmathbb{Q}impliestext{Contradiction}therefore abnotinmathbb{Q}.$$






                                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                                        $endgroup$


















                                                          0












                                                          $begingroup$

                                                          $$ainmathbb{Q},binmathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q},abinmathbb{Q}implies binmathbb{Q}impliestext{Contradiction}therefore abnotinmathbb{Q}.$$






                                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                                          $endgroup$
















                                                            0












                                                            0








                                                            0





                                                            $begingroup$

                                                            $$ainmathbb{Q},binmathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q},abinmathbb{Q}implies binmathbb{Q}impliestext{Contradiction}therefore abnotinmathbb{Q}.$$






                                                            share|cite|improve this answer









                                                            $endgroup$



                                                            $$ainmathbb{Q},binmathbb{R}setminusmathbb{Q},abinmathbb{Q}implies binmathbb{Q}impliestext{Contradiction}therefore abnotinmathbb{Q}.$$







                                                            share|cite|improve this answer












                                                            share|cite|improve this answer



                                                            share|cite|improve this answer










                                                            answered Dec 9 '18 at 16:34









                                                            AntinousAntinous

                                                            5,72542451




                                                            5,72542451























                                                                -1












                                                                $begingroup$

                                                                a is irrational, whereas b is rational.(both > 0)



                                                                Q: does the multiplication of a and b result in a rational or irrational number?:



                                                                Proof:



                                                                because b is rational:
                                                                b = u/j where u and j are integers



                                                                Assume ab is rational:
                                                                ab = k/n, where k and n are integers.

                                                                a = k/bn

                                                                a = k/(n(u/j))
                                                                a = jk/un



                                                                before we declared a as irrational, but now it is rational; a contradiction. Therefore ab must be irrational.






                                                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                                                $endgroup$


















                                                                  -1












                                                                  $begingroup$

                                                                  a is irrational, whereas b is rational.(both > 0)



                                                                  Q: does the multiplication of a and b result in a rational or irrational number?:



                                                                  Proof:



                                                                  because b is rational:
                                                                  b = u/j where u and j are integers



                                                                  Assume ab is rational:
                                                                  ab = k/n, where k and n are integers.

                                                                  a = k/bn

                                                                  a = k/(n(u/j))
                                                                  a = jk/un



                                                                  before we declared a as irrational, but now it is rational; a contradiction. Therefore ab must be irrational.






                                                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                                                  $endgroup$
















                                                                    -1












                                                                    -1








                                                                    -1





                                                                    $begingroup$

                                                                    a is irrational, whereas b is rational.(both > 0)



                                                                    Q: does the multiplication of a and b result in a rational or irrational number?:



                                                                    Proof:



                                                                    because b is rational:
                                                                    b = u/j where u and j are integers



                                                                    Assume ab is rational:
                                                                    ab = k/n, where k and n are integers.

                                                                    a = k/bn

                                                                    a = k/(n(u/j))
                                                                    a = jk/un



                                                                    before we declared a as irrational, but now it is rational; a contradiction. Therefore ab must be irrational.






                                                                    share|cite|improve this answer









                                                                    $endgroup$



                                                                    a is irrational, whereas b is rational.(both > 0)



                                                                    Q: does the multiplication of a and b result in a rational or irrational number?:



                                                                    Proof:



                                                                    because b is rational:
                                                                    b = u/j where u and j are integers



                                                                    Assume ab is rational:
                                                                    ab = k/n, where k and n are integers.

                                                                    a = k/bn

                                                                    a = k/(n(u/j))
                                                                    a = jk/un



                                                                    before we declared a as irrational, but now it is rational; a contradiction. Therefore ab must be irrational.







                                                                    share|cite|improve this answer












                                                                    share|cite|improve this answer



                                                                    share|cite|improve this answer










                                                                    answered Sep 16 '15 at 17:33









                                                                    Brendan HardyBrendan Hardy

                                                                    1




                                                                    1






























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