Why does the humidifier make a stove's flame orange?
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Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 6 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
add a comment |
up vote
81
down vote
favorite
Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 6 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
yesterday
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
23 hours ago
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
20 hours ago
1
"Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" I'm surprised it didn't get closed as opinion based (giggle).
– luk32
18 hours ago
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
9 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
81
down vote
favorite
up vote
81
down vote
favorite
Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
Just like this guy's, the color of my stove's flames were affected by the humidifier as well.
Why does this happen?
Is it a good thing or a bad thing ?
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
visible-light everyday-life physical-chemistry combustion
edited 2 days ago
Chair
3,37472033
3,37472033
asked Nov 18 at 1:46
Ilya Gazman
51849
51849
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 6 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
This question has an open bounty worth +300
reputation from niels nielsen ending in 6 days.
One or more of the answers is exemplary and worthy of an additional bounty.
this bounty is intended to reward RUSLAN for performing the experiment as described below.
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
yesterday
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
23 hours ago
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
20 hours ago
1
"Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" I'm surprised it didn't get closed as opinion based (giggle).
– luk32
18 hours ago
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
9 hours ago
add a comment |
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
yesterday
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
23 hours ago
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
20 hours ago
1
"Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" I'm surprised it didn't get closed as opinion based (giggle).
– luk32
18 hours ago
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
9 hours ago
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
yesterday
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Please note that any further comments which are not suggestions for improvement of the question, or requests to clarify it, are likely to be deleted.
– David Z♦
yesterday
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
23 hours ago
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
23 hours ago
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
20 hours ago
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
20 hours ago
1
1
"Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" I'm surprised it didn't get closed as opinion based (giggle).
– luk32
18 hours ago
"Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" I'm surprised it didn't get closed as opinion based (giggle).
– luk32
18 hours ago
1
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
9 hours ago
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
9 hours ago
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
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up vote
56
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
9
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
16
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
11
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
12
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
4
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)
From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
15
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
1
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
1
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 22 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:
Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:
As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
13
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
9
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
3
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
3
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
|
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up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
15
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
11
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
6
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
3
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
|
show 7 more comments
protected by David Z♦ 2 days ago
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6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
9
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
16
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
11
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
9
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
16
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
11
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
The explanation I furnish below will stand or fall on the outcome of an experiment I and others here have suggested which is also outlined in my response. I promise to edit or delete my answer per the recommendations of the moderators here if that experiment shows it to be wrong.
Humidifiers that operate on the "cold" principle- mixing tiny droplets of water thrown from the blades of a fan with a blast of air- produce a mist of water vapor-enriched air mixed with the partially-dried remains of water droplets that are enriched in salts by evaporative attrition.
Those salt-enriched specks, when drawn into a hot gas flame, then emit light at frequencies corresponding to the line spectra of the salt constituents. In the case of sodium chloride (the most common salt in tap water), the sodium produces a yellow-orange glow when it hits the flame.
This phenomenon forms the basis of a chemical analysis technique called flame spectroscopy, in which a platinum wire is dipped into a solution containing an unknown mixture of salts, and then stuck into a hot flame. The colors emitted as the salts in the solution are heated are then used to identify the chemical constituents of those salts.
(Since sodium is ubiquitous, and this test is so sensitive to it, the platinum wire must be dipped in hydrochloric acid, heated to redness, quenched in the acid again and reheated several times to rid it of sodium before running the test on the sample.)
This mechanism can be ruled in our out by observing the flame through a grating that separates out the primary sodium line and I invite anyone here who has a gas range (which I do not) and a grating (which I also do not, sorry) to perform the experiment and report back to us here.
Since any dust in the kitchen would likely have salt in it, if the humidifier fan is blowing dust into the flame it would make the flame yellow as well. This can be tested by running the humidifier without water in it.
edited yesterday
answered Nov 18 at 2:25
niels nielsen
13.1k42242
13.1k42242
9
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
16
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
11
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
|
show 13 more comments
9
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
16
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
11
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
9
9
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
How much salt is in your tap water? I find it unlikely that drinkable tap water would be brackish enough to show noticeable sodium colouring in a flame.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
16
16
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
@AndersSandberg: Then again, the sodium spectral line is very strong, and it takes very little salt to make it show up nice and bright. Back when I was doing flame tests in first-year inorganic chemistry lab, we'd spend quite a bit of time making sure to remove all sodium from the sample before even trying to test for any other elements, because if there was even the slightest trace of sodium left, it would overwhelm pretty much everything else. Oh, and don't touch the platinum wire with your fingers after cleaning it, because human sweat has lots of sodium in it.
– Ilmari Karonen
2 days ago
4
4
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
This answer is almost certainly wrong. You can get exactly the same effect by holding the tip of a knife in the flame, or any other object.
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
11
11
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
With all respect, the answer is almost certainty incorrect. The orange flame color is obtained in a gas flame in heating tubes in restaurants and public plazas by fuel-rich mixing. I took a pocket spectroscope to these, and their spectrum is indeed continuous. This is a thermal radiation from soot, not the Na line. I live near the ocean in a so salty air that all my tools corrode if I don't oil them for storage, as do guitar strings--and still my range flame is blue. I am very, very skeptical the OP's humidifier concentrates trace Na+ in air to express its telltale line suddenly so brightly!
– kkm
2 days ago
11
11
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
@kkm : Then that simply gives two competing explanations, each of which would seem to produce the same result with a naive observing device like the eye and/or digital camera. The only way this could be analyzed more conclusively is, thus, to conduct an empirical investigation with an experiment to try and reproduce the effect as achieved with a humidifier nearby as in the OP,with spectrometer present to see if it is line emission or continuous (thermal) spectrum in that particular circumstance. It's entirely possible for the same (esp. naively) observed effect to have multiple etiologies.
– The_Sympathizer
2 days ago
|
show 13 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
12
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
4
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
12
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
4
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
up vote
40
down vote
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
The water cools the flame to the point where you get incomplete combustion, just like a candle. The yellow light is from glowing carbon, a.k.a. soot.
answered Nov 18 at 6:51
StessenJ
1,356134
1,356134
12
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
4
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
12
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
4
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
12
12
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
Soot gives a black-body spectrum, salt gives the Na atomic lines at 589 nm. So this would be easy to decide experimentally. Look at the flame through a grating. Or a CD disk.
– Pieter
2 days ago
4
4
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
Also, sodium yellow is a fairly recognizable flame colour. The more orange colour in the photo, assuming camera colour correction have not completely changed it, looks much more like incomplete combustion than sodium to me.
– Anders Sandberg
2 days ago
3
3
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
the original Golden Gate Bridge overhead lights were low-pressure sodium, which produced an intense orange color that is very similar to the orange tint in the OP's photo. modern high-pressure sodium lights are whiter in color because they have a thermal spectrum superimposed on the line spectrum.
– niels nielsen
2 days ago
4
4
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
@nielsnielsen I'm an experimentalist (in fact a spectroscopist) and a large part of me hopes that no one has done the experiment byt he time I get home tonight. I lack a spectrometer at home but dont lack old CDs, cameras, or lenses, so could bodge something.
– Chris H
yesterday
1
1
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
@EricDuminil With a transmission grating in front of your eye (or in front of the lens of the mobile phone camera), you would see the flame spectra on both sides of the flame. If it is sodium, you would see exact images left and right of the flame with the same color. If it is soot, you would see bands from the red. Maybe I can try something here today with an ultrasonic humidifier and a Bunsen burner. But that would not be the same as your stove and your humidifier.
– Pieter
yesterday
|
show 12 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)
From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
15
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
1
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
1
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 22 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)
From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
15
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
1
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
1
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 22 more comments
up vote
40
down vote
up vote
40
down vote
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)
From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
OK, this question appears to have generated some controversy. On the one hand is the answer by niels nielsen (currently accepted), which implies that the orange color is from sodium. On the other hand is the answer by StessenJ, which implies that the orange is normal black body radiation from the soot. Plus there are lots of commentators arguing about rightness or wrongness of the sodium answer.
The only good way to settle the matter is an experiment. I did it, with some modifications. First, instead of gas stove I used a jet lighter (ZL-3 ZENGAZ). Second, instead of humidifier I used a simple barber water spray. The third necessary component is a diffraction grating, a cheap one I had bought on AliExpress. I inserted it into colorless safety goggles to avoid necessity for a third hand.
When I lit the lighter I saw a set of images in the first diffraction order: violet, blue, green, yellow and some blurred dim red. So far consistent with the spectrum of blue flame given on Wikipedia. Then I sprayed water in the air, simultaneously moving the lighter trying to find the place where the flame will change color. As the flame got orange jets instead of initial blue, I noticed orange image of the flame appear between red and yellow images in the diffraction grating.
Below is a photo I could take with the grating attached to a photo camera's lens, having mounted the camera on a tripod and holding the lighter and spray in both hands while 10s exposure was in progress (sorry for bad quality). Notice the yellow/orange (colors are not calibrated) tall spike at the RHS: that is the part only present in the orange flame. (The jet indeed became visibly taller when it changed its color to orange.)
From this follows that the orange color indeed comes from sodium, otherwise the orange flame's image would be much wider and spread into multiple colors like the flame from a candle or a non-jet lighter.
The readers are welcome to replicate this experiment.
EDIT
OK, I've managed to measure some spectra using my Amadeus spectrometer with custom driver. I used 15 s integration time with the flame about 3-5 cm from the SMA905 connector on the spectrometer body.
Below the two spectra are superimposed, with the blue curve corresponding to the blue flame, and the orange one corresponds to the flame with some orange. I've filtered the data with 5-point moving average before plotting. The spectrometer has lower sensitivity near UV and IR, so disregard the noise there.
What's worth noting is that not only the sodium 590 nm line is present in the orange flame, but also two potassium lines – 766 nm and 770 nm.
edited 10 hours ago
answered yesterday
Ruslan
7,47342864
7,47342864
15
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
1
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
1
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 22 more comments
15
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
1
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
1
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
15
15
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
I suggest trying this experiment again, but using distilled instead of tap water.
– David Hammen
yesterday
1
1
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
@Pieter yeah, but that would require a real third hand, not simply "goggles as grating holder".
– Ruslan
yesterday
1
1
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
@Pieter OK, I've posted an attempt at a photo. Sorry for bad quality, but this is all I could get holding the lighter in a hand.
– Ruslan
yesterday
2
2
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
Very nice! Though by this experiment we can't really tell if it's sodium specifically. It might also be calcium. It would have been great to do the experiment with a more accurate spectrometer.
– jkej
21 hours ago
3
3
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
@DavidHammen I've tried the experiment with distilled water (the bottle label reads "дистиллированная вода более 30%", whatever that "more than 30%" means...). The results are the same: I still do get the orange spike in the spectrum. Maybe the water is not pure enough, dunno...
– Ruslan
12 hours ago
|
show 22 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:
Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:
As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
13
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
9
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
3
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
3
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:
Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:
As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
13
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
9
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
3
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
3
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:
Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:
As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
The accepted answer is not correct.
I have a gas stove in the basement which I have to do periodic maintenance on. This requires you to remove a bunch of fake logs, which are made out of some very lightweight material, I think something similar to rockwool but more solid. After maintenance I turn it on to be sure it's still working, and noticed that if the "logs" are not in, the flame is pure blue. This piqued my interest, so I replaced the logs and noticed that the flame turns orange after a short period, which corresponds visibly to the "logs" beginning to glow red. For instance, here is the stove shortly after starting (as quickly as I could run from the thermostat to the stove) and then again about two minutes later:
Not a huge difference, but you can see it. The flame along the front has no "log" over it so it remains blue. There used to be some rockwool insulation here but I removed it thinking it was left over from the installation.
It is not entirely clear how the "logs" do this, but it is clear this is purely due to the temperature of the flame. For further proof, I took these two photos of our cooktop:
As you can see, simply inserting something cold into the flame causes it to turn orange. Now a huge effect here either, but that's because I was one-handing the photo and the knife isn't properly positioned. The humidifier does this by inserting a mist of water over the entire area.
answered 2 days ago
Maury Markowitz
2,787522
2,787522
13
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
9
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
3
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
3
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
13
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
9
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
3
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
3
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
13
13
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
"the knife will have sodium" - of come on, at the absolute best-case limit it will not be enough to be visible, and especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long. And what do you think is happening in the stove? Those "logs" are almost 30 years old and burn orange as long as the stove is running. The sodium explaination is completely implausible in both instances, or the hundreds of other objects you might try. Have you actually tried this, with anything?
– Maury Markowitz
2 days ago
9
9
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
@MauryMarkowitz "especially not enough to explain the fact that it will continue to be orange all day long if you care to hold it in that long" .. if the temperature of the object really was the reason, shouldn't it have heated up enough for the flame to lose that orange colour by then?
– muru
yesterday
5
5
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
This might be correct; but the justification seems extremely weak to me. If the issue was with the temperature; why don't the logs start with an orange flame when the temperature distribution is greatest? Why does the knife keep the flame glowing red even when it's allowed to reach closer to equilibrium. I think this is closer than the accepted answer; but at the same time isn't really any more justified.
– JMac
yesterday
3
3
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
@MauryMarkowitz You have clearly never tried to stop experiments being upset by sodium flame contamination. First, sodium is everywhere (glass, for example) and a very, very small amount gives a visibly detectable flame colour. The logs are probably made from a sodium-containing ceramic. Don't speculate about things you have no experience of. Every glassblower knows you are wrong in practice.
– matt_black
yesterday
3
3
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
This answer doesn't really say anything as to why humidifiers cause the flame to change color, it just shows that you can also partially change the color of a flame by inserting something into it, but does not prove that the mechanism by which the knife/logs change the color is the same as the one from the humidifier.
– Herohtar
12 hours ago
|
show 10 more comments
up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
Little bit of every thing here. But I would certainly not ignore CO. Remember gas comes out under pressure, and if any passes through the heat of the flame before being completely oxidized, you get CO. Presence of sodium could contribute, I would test with distilled water first. But water droplets would cool the flame faster by drawing heat to evaporate. Get a CO meter, and open the windows!
New contributor
New contributor
answered 2 days ago
Robert DiGiovanni
311
311
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
15
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
11
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
6
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
3
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
15
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
11
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
6
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
3
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
-1
down vote
up vote
-1
down vote
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
The humidifier increases the percentage of water vapour in the air, which decreases the percentage of oxygen. The deficit of oxygen makes the burning of the gas less efficient, with the orange flame that also indicates a higher amount of CO in the exhaust gas.
Make sure to increase ventilation when you see orange tips on the flames.
answered 2 days ago
Douglas Held
21716
21716
15
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
11
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
6
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
3
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
|
show 7 more comments
15
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
11
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
6
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
3
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
15
15
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
The humidifier surely isn't displacing any significant amount of oxygen.
– David Richerby
2 days ago
3
3
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
If you're going to disagree with me, do it with metrics.
– Douglas Held
2 days ago
11
11
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
That's why there are so many reports of humidifier deaths, right?
– immibis
2 days ago
6
6
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
@DouglasHeld: There is 21 % of Oxygen in air. The saturation vapor pressure for humidity corresponds to approx 3 % of absolute concentration at room temp. (beyond that there will be "rain"). So there will not be a significant decrease of oxygen. It is not possible. Practically the humidifier will also not be able to come even close to the 3% (more likely between 1 - 2 %).
– Andreas H.
yesterday
3
3
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
@user71659 You can't compare pressurized pipework leaks with superheated vapour to a tabletop humidifying unit. Those are not humidifiers, and do not act like them. In that case, the pressure is built up far above atmospheric, so the vapour can take up a far higher percentage of the air which is kept at a lower pressure. You need situations like exploding heated and pressurized pipes in fairly enclosed spaces to have something like that happen.
– JMac
yesterday
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yesterday
Given the explanation in the accepted answer, it'd be neat if you could post a third picture taken when the humidifier is filled with distilled water, which should lack the salts found in drinking water. Grocery stores often sell distilled water in gallon-sized plastic jugs.
– Nat
23 hours ago
The pictures in the question are not by OP. He took them from the linked website. So no chance we'll get a third picture with distilled/deionized water.
– user27542
20 hours ago
1
"Is it a good thing or a bad thing?" I'm surprised it didn't get closed as opinion based (giggle).
– luk32
18 hours ago
1
Can you confirm or clarify if the color of these flames appears to be the same as that caused by normal cooling of the flame? You could spray or drip water that is not from the the humidifier to see if the color is the same. Putting very cold water in a thin metal pot over a high flame should also cause water to condense on the pot and drip into the flames, causing an orange colored flame for a brief moment. It would be edifying to know if the orange colors are the same. Photos of both flames taken with the same camera might be interesting also (although not necessarily conclusive).
– Todd Wilcox
9 hours ago