How to prove that an even permutation of $A_n$ is a square of another permutation from $S_n$?











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I am trying to go through a proof which contains a statement that an even permutation from $A_n$ is a square of another permutation from $S_n$. My basic ideas are like this:



Suppose an even permutation is $y$. As the signature of an even permutation is $+1$, we are able to write it as a product of $t_{1}t_{2}t_{3}t_{4}...t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ with each $t$ standing for a two cycle. Then, consider $t_{1}t_{2}$, it can be written as $(ij)(kl)$ if $t_{1}$ and $t_{2}$ are distinct, or as $(ij)(jk)$ if they are not distinct. However, $(ij)(kl) = (ikjl)^2$ and $(ij)(jk) = (ikj)^2$, which means each of the $t_1t_2$, $t_3t_4$,...,$t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ is a square of another permutation of $S_n$, say $x_i$.



However, how does it imply that $y$ is a square of another permutation? If $y = x_1^2...x_r^2$, does it necessarily mean that $y$ is a square of something? Is $x_i$ commutative in this case? I need some hints, thanks.










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  • Aren't all elements $A_n$ even permutations?
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • See math.stackexchange.com/a/538179/589
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • The result claimed is in general not true. But it is true for n=5
    – C Monsour
    Nov 16 at 5:42















up vote
4
down vote

favorite












I am trying to go through a proof which contains a statement that an even permutation from $A_n$ is a square of another permutation from $S_n$. My basic ideas are like this:



Suppose an even permutation is $y$. As the signature of an even permutation is $+1$, we are able to write it as a product of $t_{1}t_{2}t_{3}t_{4}...t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ with each $t$ standing for a two cycle. Then, consider $t_{1}t_{2}$, it can be written as $(ij)(kl)$ if $t_{1}$ and $t_{2}$ are distinct, or as $(ij)(jk)$ if they are not distinct. However, $(ij)(kl) = (ikjl)^2$ and $(ij)(jk) = (ikj)^2$, which means each of the $t_1t_2$, $t_3t_4$,...,$t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ is a square of another permutation of $S_n$, say $x_i$.



However, how does it imply that $y$ is a square of another permutation? If $y = x_1^2...x_r^2$, does it necessarily mean that $y$ is a square of something? Is $x_i$ commutative in this case? I need some hints, thanks.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Aren't all elements $A_n$ even permutations?
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • See math.stackexchange.com/a/538179/589
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • The result claimed is in general not true. But it is true for n=5
    – C Monsour
    Nov 16 at 5:42













up vote
4
down vote

favorite









up vote
4
down vote

favorite











I am trying to go through a proof which contains a statement that an even permutation from $A_n$ is a square of another permutation from $S_n$. My basic ideas are like this:



Suppose an even permutation is $y$. As the signature of an even permutation is $+1$, we are able to write it as a product of $t_{1}t_{2}t_{3}t_{4}...t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ with each $t$ standing for a two cycle. Then, consider $t_{1}t_{2}$, it can be written as $(ij)(kl)$ if $t_{1}$ and $t_{2}$ are distinct, or as $(ij)(jk)$ if they are not distinct. However, $(ij)(kl) = (ikjl)^2$ and $(ij)(jk) = (ikj)^2$, which means each of the $t_1t_2$, $t_3t_4$,...,$t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ is a square of another permutation of $S_n$, say $x_i$.



However, how does it imply that $y$ is a square of another permutation? If $y = x_1^2...x_r^2$, does it necessarily mean that $y$ is a square of something? Is $x_i$ commutative in this case? I need some hints, thanks.










share|cite|improve this question















I am trying to go through a proof which contains a statement that an even permutation from $A_n$ is a square of another permutation from $S_n$. My basic ideas are like this:



Suppose an even permutation is $y$. As the signature of an even permutation is $+1$, we are able to write it as a product of $t_{1}t_{2}t_{3}t_{4}...t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ with each $t$ standing for a two cycle. Then, consider $t_{1}t_{2}$, it can be written as $(ij)(kl)$ if $t_{1}$ and $t_{2}$ are distinct, or as $(ij)(jk)$ if they are not distinct. However, $(ij)(kl) = (ikjl)^2$ and $(ij)(jk) = (ikj)^2$, which means each of the $t_1t_2$, $t_3t_4$,...,$t_{2r-1}t_{2r}$ is a square of another permutation of $S_n$, say $x_i$.



However, how does it imply that $y$ is a square of another permutation? If $y = x_1^2...x_r^2$, does it necessarily mean that $y$ is a square of something? Is $x_i$ commutative in this case? I need some hints, thanks.







abstract-algebra combinatorics group-theory permutations permutation-cycles






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edited Nov 15 at 13:37









amWhy

191k27223437




191k27223437










asked Nov 15 at 13:09









Jamie Carr

444




444












  • Aren't all elements $A_n$ even permutations?
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • See math.stackexchange.com/a/538179/589
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • The result claimed is in general not true. But it is true for n=5
    – C Monsour
    Nov 16 at 5:42


















  • Aren't all elements $A_n$ even permutations?
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • See math.stackexchange.com/a/538179/589
    – lhf
    Nov 15 at 15:52










  • The result claimed is in general not true. But it is true for n=5
    – C Monsour
    Nov 16 at 5:42
















Aren't all elements $A_n$ even permutations?
– lhf
Nov 15 at 15:52




Aren't all elements $A_n$ even permutations?
– lhf
Nov 15 at 15:52












See math.stackexchange.com/a/538179/589
– lhf
Nov 15 at 15:52




See math.stackexchange.com/a/538179/589
– lhf
Nov 15 at 15:52












The result claimed is in general not true. But it is true for n=5
– C Monsour
Nov 16 at 5:42




The result claimed is in general not true. But it is true for n=5
– C Monsour
Nov 16 at 5:42










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
3
down vote













Hint. A permutation is the square of another permutation if and only if, its cycle decomposition has an even number of cycles of length $m$ for every even number $m$.






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 1




    Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
    – Jamie Carr
    Nov 15 at 13:19










  • See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
    – Robert Z
    Nov 15 at 17:10


















up vote
1
down vote













Some more hints:



Begin by studying the cycle structures of squares $sigma:=picircpi$ of arbitrary permutations. For this it is sufficient to find out what happens to a cycle of odd length under squaring, and what happens to a cycle of even length under squaring.






share|cite|improve this answer






























    up vote
    1
    down vote













    That's not remotely true: the density of squares in $S_n$ goes to zero as $nto +infty$ (like $frac{C}{sqrt{n}}$, actually), while your claim would imply that the $liminf$ of such density is at least $frac{1}{2}$. Indeed, if we consider
    $$sigma = (1,2)(3,4,5,6) in A_6 $$
    this is not the square of anything in $S_6$. A square in $S_6$ has the property that the cycles with a fixed even length appear with an even multiplicity.






    share|cite|improve this answer























    • Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
      – C Monsour
      Nov 16 at 5:36










    • Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
      – C Monsour
      Nov 16 at 5:46








    • 1




      I deleted the erroneous sentence.
      – C Monsour
      Nov 16 at 5:47











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    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes








    3 Answers
    3






    active

    oldest

    votes









    active

    oldest

    votes






    active

    oldest

    votes








    up vote
    3
    down vote













    Hint. A permutation is the square of another permutation if and only if, its cycle decomposition has an even number of cycles of length $m$ for every even number $m$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 1




      Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
      – Jamie Carr
      Nov 15 at 13:19










    • See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
      – Robert Z
      Nov 15 at 17:10















    up vote
    3
    down vote













    Hint. A permutation is the square of another permutation if and only if, its cycle decomposition has an even number of cycles of length $m$ for every even number $m$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 1




      Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
      – Jamie Carr
      Nov 15 at 13:19










    • See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
      – Robert Z
      Nov 15 at 17:10













    up vote
    3
    down vote










    up vote
    3
    down vote









    Hint. A permutation is the square of another permutation if and only if, its cycle decomposition has an even number of cycles of length $m$ for every even number $m$.






    share|cite|improve this answer












    Hint. A permutation is the square of another permutation if and only if, its cycle decomposition has an even number of cycles of length $m$ for every even number $m$.







    share|cite|improve this answer












    share|cite|improve this answer



    share|cite|improve this answer










    answered Nov 15 at 13:13









    Robert Z

    89.8k1056128




    89.8k1056128








    • 1




      Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
      – Jamie Carr
      Nov 15 at 13:19










    • See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
      – Robert Z
      Nov 15 at 17:10














    • 1




      Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
      – Jamie Carr
      Nov 15 at 13:19










    • See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
      – Robert Z
      Nov 15 at 17:10








    1




    1




    Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
    – Jamie Carr
    Nov 15 at 13:19




    Thanks for your answer but I wonder is there a strict proof of that? I am not so sured that these cycles are distinct so that I can change the order of them to make a perfect square...For example, if p = x^2y^2 does it mean that p is a square of another permutation?
    – Jamie Carr
    Nov 15 at 13:19












    See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
    – Robert Z
    Nov 15 at 17:10




    See for example math.stackexchange.com/questions/266569/…
    – Robert Z
    Nov 15 at 17:10










    up vote
    1
    down vote













    Some more hints:



    Begin by studying the cycle structures of squares $sigma:=picircpi$ of arbitrary permutations. For this it is sufficient to find out what happens to a cycle of odd length under squaring, and what happens to a cycle of even length under squaring.






    share|cite|improve this answer



























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      Some more hints:



      Begin by studying the cycle structures of squares $sigma:=picircpi$ of arbitrary permutations. For this it is sufficient to find out what happens to a cycle of odd length under squaring, and what happens to a cycle of even length under squaring.






      share|cite|improve this answer

























        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        Some more hints:



        Begin by studying the cycle structures of squares $sigma:=picircpi$ of arbitrary permutations. For this it is sufficient to find out what happens to a cycle of odd length under squaring, and what happens to a cycle of even length under squaring.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        Some more hints:



        Begin by studying the cycle structures of squares $sigma:=picircpi$ of arbitrary permutations. For this it is sufficient to find out what happens to a cycle of odd length under squaring, and what happens to a cycle of even length under squaring.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Nov 15 at 15:37

























        answered Nov 15 at 13:34









        Christian Blatter

        170k7111324




        170k7111324






















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            That's not remotely true: the density of squares in $S_n$ goes to zero as $nto +infty$ (like $frac{C}{sqrt{n}}$, actually), while your claim would imply that the $liminf$ of such density is at least $frac{1}{2}$. Indeed, if we consider
            $$sigma = (1,2)(3,4,5,6) in A_6 $$
            this is not the square of anything in $S_6$. A square in $S_6$ has the property that the cycles with a fixed even length appear with an even multiplicity.






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:36










            • Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:46








            • 1




              I deleted the erroneous sentence.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:47















            up vote
            1
            down vote













            That's not remotely true: the density of squares in $S_n$ goes to zero as $nto +infty$ (like $frac{C}{sqrt{n}}$, actually), while your claim would imply that the $liminf$ of such density is at least $frac{1}{2}$. Indeed, if we consider
            $$sigma = (1,2)(3,4,5,6) in A_6 $$
            this is not the square of anything in $S_6$. A square in $S_6$ has the property that the cycles with a fixed even length appear with an even multiplicity.






            share|cite|improve this answer























            • Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:36










            • Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:46








            • 1




              I deleted the erroneous sentence.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:47













            up vote
            1
            down vote










            up vote
            1
            down vote









            That's not remotely true: the density of squares in $S_n$ goes to zero as $nto +infty$ (like $frac{C}{sqrt{n}}$, actually), while your claim would imply that the $liminf$ of such density is at least $frac{1}{2}$. Indeed, if we consider
            $$sigma = (1,2)(3,4,5,6) in A_6 $$
            this is not the square of anything in $S_6$. A square in $S_6$ has the property that the cycles with a fixed even length appear with an even multiplicity.






            share|cite|improve this answer














            That's not remotely true: the density of squares in $S_n$ goes to zero as $nto +infty$ (like $frac{C}{sqrt{n}}$, actually), while your claim would imply that the $liminf$ of such density is at least $frac{1}{2}$. Indeed, if we consider
            $$sigma = (1,2)(3,4,5,6) in A_6 $$
            this is not the square of anything in $S_6$. A square in $S_6$ has the property that the cycles with a fixed even length appear with an even multiplicity.







            share|cite|improve this answer














            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer








            edited Nov 16 at 5:47









            C Monsour

            5,552224




            5,552224










            answered Nov 15 at 18:32









            Jack D'Aurizio

            282k33274653




            282k33274653












            • Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:36










            • Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:46








            • 1




              I deleted the erroneous sentence.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:47


















            • Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:36










            • Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:46








            • 1




              I deleted the erroneous sentence.
              – C Monsour
              Nov 16 at 5:47
















            Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
            – C Monsour
            Nov 16 at 5:36




            Your last sentence is completely false. For example the set of squares in any dihedral group form a subgroup, and the set of squares in $S_5$ are in fact $A_5$.
            – C Monsour
            Nov 16 at 5:36












            Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
            – C Monsour
            Nov 16 at 5:46






            Not to mention that the squares form a subgroup of any group of odd order.
            – C Monsour
            Nov 16 at 5:46






            1




            1




            I deleted the erroneous sentence.
            – C Monsour
            Nov 16 at 5:47




            I deleted the erroneous sentence.
            – C Monsour
            Nov 16 at 5:47


















             

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