All natural numbers are equal.












55












$begingroup$


I saw the following "theorem" and its "proof".



I can't explain well why the argument is wrong. Could you give me clear explanation so that kids can understand.



Theorem: All natural numbers are equal.
Let $a, b in mathbb{N}$, then a=b.



Proof by induction.
Let $m=max{a, b}$. We will prove that the theorem holds for all $min mathbb{N}$.

If $m=1$, then $max{a,b}=1$, so $a=b=1$.


Now assume that it holds for $m=k$ for some number $k$.

Now let $max{a, b}=k+1$. Then $max{a-1, b-1}=k$ and thus by assumption $a-1=b-1$, so $a=b$.

Therefore, the proof is complete.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    To use m = 1 is a bad idea, since this is a one case scenario (there's only one natural in the set {1}). If k > 1, then, after max {a,b} = k, why do you assume that a - 1 = b - 1?
    $endgroup$
    – Francisco Presencia
    Mar 27 '13 at 5:36






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment on the form: since your theorem does not mention $m$, it is pointless to say the theorem holds for all $m$. What you mean is "Proof by induction on $max(a,b)$". In general it is good to always let "by induction" be followed by "on [something]".
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    Mar 27 '13 at 9:03






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    All natural numbers are equal, but some natural numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:27








  • 6




    $begingroup$
    ...but some numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – knutole
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:50








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_horses_are_the_same_color has a similar idea for where it goes wrong that may be useful here.
    $endgroup$
    – JB King
    Mar 27 '13 at 18:01
















55












$begingroup$


I saw the following "theorem" and its "proof".



I can't explain well why the argument is wrong. Could you give me clear explanation so that kids can understand.



Theorem: All natural numbers are equal.
Let $a, b in mathbb{N}$, then a=b.



Proof by induction.
Let $m=max{a, b}$. We will prove that the theorem holds for all $min mathbb{N}$.

If $m=1$, then $max{a,b}=1$, so $a=b=1$.


Now assume that it holds for $m=k$ for some number $k$.

Now let $max{a, b}=k+1$. Then $max{a-1, b-1}=k$ and thus by assumption $a-1=b-1$, so $a=b$.

Therefore, the proof is complete.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    To use m = 1 is a bad idea, since this is a one case scenario (there's only one natural in the set {1}). If k > 1, then, after max {a,b} = k, why do you assume that a - 1 = b - 1?
    $endgroup$
    – Francisco Presencia
    Mar 27 '13 at 5:36






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment on the form: since your theorem does not mention $m$, it is pointless to say the theorem holds for all $m$. What you mean is "Proof by induction on $max(a,b)$". In general it is good to always let "by induction" be followed by "on [something]".
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    Mar 27 '13 at 9:03






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    All natural numbers are equal, but some natural numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:27








  • 6




    $begingroup$
    ...but some numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – knutole
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:50








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_horses_are_the_same_color has a similar idea for where it goes wrong that may be useful here.
    $endgroup$
    – JB King
    Mar 27 '13 at 18:01














55












55








55


20



$begingroup$


I saw the following "theorem" and its "proof".



I can't explain well why the argument is wrong. Could you give me clear explanation so that kids can understand.



Theorem: All natural numbers are equal.
Let $a, b in mathbb{N}$, then a=b.



Proof by induction.
Let $m=max{a, b}$. We will prove that the theorem holds for all $min mathbb{N}$.

If $m=1$, then $max{a,b}=1$, so $a=b=1$.


Now assume that it holds for $m=k$ for some number $k$.

Now let $max{a, b}=k+1$. Then $max{a-1, b-1}=k$ and thus by assumption $a-1=b-1$, so $a=b$.

Therefore, the proof is complete.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I saw the following "theorem" and its "proof".



I can't explain well why the argument is wrong. Could you give me clear explanation so that kids can understand.



Theorem: All natural numbers are equal.
Let $a, b in mathbb{N}$, then a=b.



Proof by induction.
Let $m=max{a, b}$. We will prove that the theorem holds for all $min mathbb{N}$.

If $m=1$, then $max{a,b}=1$, so $a=b=1$.


Now assume that it holds for $m=k$ for some number $k$.

Now let $max{a, b}=k+1$. Then $max{a-1, b-1}=k$ and thus by assumption $a-1=b-1$, so $a=b$.

Therefore, the proof is complete.







induction fake-proofs






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Mar 27 '13 at 14:43









Community

1




1










asked Mar 27 '13 at 1:17









SnowSnow

872820




872820








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    To use m = 1 is a bad idea, since this is a one case scenario (there's only one natural in the set {1}). If k > 1, then, after max {a,b} = k, why do you assume that a - 1 = b - 1?
    $endgroup$
    – Francisco Presencia
    Mar 27 '13 at 5:36






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment on the form: since your theorem does not mention $m$, it is pointless to say the theorem holds for all $m$. What you mean is "Proof by induction on $max(a,b)$". In general it is good to always let "by induction" be followed by "on [something]".
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    Mar 27 '13 at 9:03






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    All natural numbers are equal, but some natural numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:27








  • 6




    $begingroup$
    ...but some numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – knutole
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:50








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_horses_are_the_same_color has a similar idea for where it goes wrong that may be useful here.
    $endgroup$
    – JB King
    Mar 27 '13 at 18:01














  • 4




    $begingroup$
    To use m = 1 is a bad idea, since this is a one case scenario (there's only one natural in the set {1}). If k > 1, then, after max {a,b} = k, why do you assume that a - 1 = b - 1?
    $endgroup$
    – Francisco Presencia
    Mar 27 '13 at 5:36






  • 5




    $begingroup$
    Just a comment on the form: since your theorem does not mention $m$, it is pointless to say the theorem holds for all $m$. What you mean is "Proof by induction on $max(a,b)$". In general it is good to always let "by induction" be followed by "on [something]".
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    Mar 27 '13 at 9:03






  • 11




    $begingroup$
    All natural numbers are equal, but some natural numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – Asaf Karagila
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:27








  • 6




    $begingroup$
    ...but some numbers are more equal than others.
    $endgroup$
    – knutole
    Mar 27 '13 at 13:50








  • 3




    $begingroup$
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_horses_are_the_same_color has a similar idea for where it goes wrong that may be useful here.
    $endgroup$
    – JB King
    Mar 27 '13 at 18:01








4




4




$begingroup$
To use m = 1 is a bad idea, since this is a one case scenario (there's only one natural in the set {1}). If k > 1, then, after max {a,b} = k, why do you assume that a - 1 = b - 1?
$endgroup$
– Francisco Presencia
Mar 27 '13 at 5:36




$begingroup$
To use m = 1 is a bad idea, since this is a one case scenario (there's only one natural in the set {1}). If k > 1, then, after max {a,b} = k, why do you assume that a - 1 = b - 1?
$endgroup$
– Francisco Presencia
Mar 27 '13 at 5:36




5




5




$begingroup$
Just a comment on the form: since your theorem does not mention $m$, it is pointless to say the theorem holds for all $m$. What you mean is "Proof by induction on $max(a,b)$". In general it is good to always let "by induction" be followed by "on [something]".
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 27 '13 at 9:03




$begingroup$
Just a comment on the form: since your theorem does not mention $m$, it is pointless to say the theorem holds for all $m$. What you mean is "Proof by induction on $max(a,b)$". In general it is good to always let "by induction" be followed by "on [something]".
$endgroup$
– Marc van Leeuwen
Mar 27 '13 at 9:03




11




11




$begingroup$
All natural numbers are equal, but some natural numbers are more equal than others.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila
Mar 27 '13 at 13:27






$begingroup$
All natural numbers are equal, but some natural numbers are more equal than others.
$endgroup$
– Asaf Karagila
Mar 27 '13 at 13:27






6




6




$begingroup$
...but some numbers are more equal than others.
$endgroup$
– knutole
Mar 27 '13 at 13:50






$begingroup$
...but some numbers are more equal than others.
$endgroup$
– knutole
Mar 27 '13 at 13:50






3




3




$begingroup$
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_horses_are_the_same_color has a similar idea for where it goes wrong that may be useful here.
$endgroup$
– JB King
Mar 27 '13 at 18:01




$begingroup$
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_horses_are_the_same_color has a similar idea for where it goes wrong that may be useful here.
$endgroup$
– JB King
Mar 27 '13 at 18:01










11 Answers
11






active

oldest

votes


















66












$begingroup$

The error lies in the fact that when decreasing $1$ you may get out of the set $mathbb{N}$ - and indeed, $max{1,2}=max{0,1}+1$, but $0 ne 1$, and $0notin mathbb{N}$ as you defined it.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
    $endgroup$
    – Lucian Depold
    Mar 27 '13 at 15:38








  • 24




    $begingroup$
    @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
    $endgroup$
    – Alfonso Fernandez
    Mar 27 '13 at 15:45












  • $begingroup$
    you are right !
    $endgroup$
    – Lucian Depold
    Mar 27 '13 at 15:47










  • $begingroup$
    All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
    $endgroup$
    – Kaz
    Mar 28 '13 at 1:11






  • 8




    $begingroup$
    @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Alfonso Fernandez
    Mar 28 '13 at 2:15



















30












$begingroup$

The problem starts with this sentence:




Now assume that it holds for $m = k$ for some number $k$.




Assume that what holds for some $k$? What is the it that is to be assumed holds?



If $max(a, b) = k$, it means that either




  • $a = k cap 1 le b lt k$; or

  • $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$; or

  • $a = b = k$.


In the special case $k = 1$, the first two cases are ruled out, but they are not ruled out when $k > 1$. So what the proof is assuming true for any $k$ is just the third case:




  • $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = k$


So this is basically a case of incomplete case analysis: conveniently ignoring cases in the general truth, because they do not occur in the base case, and simply proceeding from the base case via induction without further considering the missing cases.



Another issue with the proof is that it only argues for the equality of the variables $a = b$. This conclusion does not permit us to believe that all numbers are equal. For that, it would be necessary to prove something like $a = a - 1$, for any $a$, which then connects with the base case $a = 1$. To goal of the proof should be to show that any two arbitrarily chosen natural numbers $a$ and $b$ are equal. But in the proof, $a$ and $b$ are anything but independent of each other, or of the parameter $k$.



For the proof to even try to show that the numbers are equal, what it requires us to believe is not simply that $a = b = k$ for an arbitrary $k$, but in fact that literally the original base relation holds for arbitrary $k$. Namely that $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = 1$ just like in the base case where $k = m = 1$. This is actually the it which is to be assumed. But of course, that just begs the question! If we simply assume that all numbers are equal to 1, then of course they are all equal, Q.E.D.



The proof obfuscates its poor logic by actually not stating it, and alluding to it via the pronoun it which has no clear antecedent. It makes an overture which hints at an inductive structure (base case, inductive step) and hopes that the reader's mind will somehow blunder in trying to connect the pieces.



One more flaw is this use of $a$ and $b$ as distractors to obfuscate vacuous truths. In induction along a single discrete variable, we have some logical proposition $P(n)$ which we show to be true for some base cases, for example showing that $P(1)$ is true. Then we show that the inductive hypothesis is true: namely $P(k)implies P(k + 1)$. The statement $P$ consists of some equation which involves only functions of $k$, and no other independent variables. If symbols other than $k$ appear, they are either constants, or functions of $k$ (dependent variables). In our proof, the variables $a$ and $b$ are such functions of $k$. In fact, it is assumed that $a = b = k$. So $max(a, b) = k$ really means $max(k, k) = k$, and $a = b$ just means $k = k$.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
    $endgroup$
    – Leo
    Mar 27 '13 at 14:26






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
    $endgroup$
    – Marc van Leeuwen
    Mar 27 '13 at 18:01












  • $begingroup$
    @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
    $endgroup$
    – Kaz
    Mar 27 '13 at 18:37








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    This deserves more upvotes!!!
    $endgroup$
    – Pedro Tamaroff
    Mar 28 '13 at 5:34






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
    $endgroup$
    – 6005
    Jul 19 '15 at 16:53





















29












$begingroup$

Hint:



The smallest case where your "theorem" is obviously wrong is the set ${1,2}$. Now check every step of the "proof" with this example. What goes wrong?






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    14












    $begingroup$

    It's true that $a-1$ and $b-1$ may not be in the naturals, but what this fact is really getting at is that you don't have enough initial conditions. The argument is phrased to hide this. Instead of writing the claim as:
    $$forall a, forall ble a,a = b = max{a,b}$$
    which shows that we have to induct over $a$, and then within this, induct over $b$, or perhaps as,
    $$forall (a,b)in mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}, a = b = max{a,b} $$
    which would require us to impose an ordering on $mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$ and induct along this ordering, it is written as:
    $$forall m, m = max{a,b}, m = a = b$$
    Which hides the quantifiers on $a$ and $b$ (namely, ex. $forall a,b le m$).






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      11












      $begingroup$

      One obvious problem is that $a-1$ or $b-1$ might be zero. So for $m = 2 $ you have for example $2 = max{1,2}$ and $1 = max{0,1}$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$





















        5












        $begingroup$

        Sneaky induction proofs always fail in the same way (or at least all the ones I've seen do): the induction step doesn't apply to the base case. When you say, "assume the theorem holds for $m$", you naturally think of $m$ as arbitrary, and hence moderately large. But $m$ is any natural number, so you have to check all of them.



        This is very similar to the inductive every horse is the same color proof (in fact, it's probably just the same "proof" reworded in terms of natural numbers). In that proof, there is the same fallacy: the induction step does not apply to the base case (if you take two distinct $2 - 1$ element subsets of a $2$ element set, they do not intersect).






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$









        • 1




          $begingroup$
          No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
          $endgroup$
          – Marc van Leeuwen
          Mar 27 '13 at 18:14





















        4












        $begingroup$

        Hint $ $ Here is a constructive viewpoint. We use $,0,$ vs. $,1,$ as base case. Suppose we have a natural number computer that has no subtraction operation, but does have a decrement operation. Then we can reduce equality testing of naturals to zero testing, by implementing a recursive algorithm that continually decrements both numbers $rm a= b !iff! a!-!1 = b!-!1!iff! a!-!2 = b!-!2!iffcdots:$ till we reach the "base" case where one is zero; then we test if the other is zero using the zero-test operation. Notice that the algorithm terminates in "base" cases of the form $rm:n = 0:$ or $rm: 0 = n,:$ not in a single base case $rm: 0 = 0.:$ The given "proof" can be viewed as an implementation of this algorithm, presuming that the recursion always terminates in the single base case $,0 = 0,$ (or $1 =1$ using $rm,n=1,$ as base case). If that were true, then the equality test would indeed always return true.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$





















          1












          $begingroup$

          "Then max{a−1,b−1}=k and thus by assumption a−1=b−1"

          This seems to be the problem in the explanation

          By which assumption should these be equal?

          The only prior statement that talks about the arguments to max{ } being equal is when k = 1, and that is a specific case and not for any general value

          Also, this might be related






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$





















            1












            $begingroup$

            If all natural numbers were equal, then for $m=1$, $a=b=1$ but for $m=2$ there have to be some numbers that are greater than $1$! Therefore not all numbers are equal! The induction itself uses natural numbers, that differ from each other. $m=1$ differs from the value $m=2$ ! And with that we try to prove that they don't differ !






            share|cite|improve this answer











            $endgroup$









            • 3




              $begingroup$
              The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
              $endgroup$
              – azimut
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:26










            • $begingroup$
              yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
              $endgroup$
              – Lucian Depold
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:29



















            -1












            $begingroup$

            If $m=2$ then, following your demonstration we have $m=max{a,b}Rightarrow max{a-1,b-1}=1Rightarrow a-1=b-1Rightarrow a=b=2$. So $a$ and $b$ MOST be equal 2. So in general this will only works when $a=b$. That's the error, when $aneq b$ it just won't work.






            share|cite|improve this answer









            $endgroup$





















              -1












              $begingroup$

              the first assumption was $m=k$ or $max(a,b)=k$, but the theory is letting $max(a,b)=k+1$ meaning "$max(a,b)=max(a,b)+1$" which drives the proof wrong!






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                $endgroup$
                – awllower
                Mar 27 '13 at 12:19










              protected by T. Bongers Dec 14 '18 at 16:39



              Thank you for your interest in this question.
              Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



              Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?














              11 Answers
              11






              active

              oldest

              votes








              11 Answers
              11






              active

              oldest

              votes









              active

              oldest

              votes






              active

              oldest

              votes









              66












              $begingroup$

              The error lies in the fact that when decreasing $1$ you may get out of the set $mathbb{N}$ - and indeed, $max{1,2}=max{0,1}+1$, but $0 ne 1$, and $0notin mathbb{N}$ as you defined it.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:38








              • 24




                $begingroup$
                @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:45












              • $begingroup$
                you are right !
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:47










              • $begingroup$
                All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 28 '13 at 1:11






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 28 '13 at 2:15
















              66












              $begingroup$

              The error lies in the fact that when decreasing $1$ you may get out of the set $mathbb{N}$ - and indeed, $max{1,2}=max{0,1}+1$, but $0 ne 1$, and $0notin mathbb{N}$ as you defined it.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:38








              • 24




                $begingroup$
                @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:45












              • $begingroup$
                you are right !
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:47










              • $begingroup$
                All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 28 '13 at 1:11






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 28 '13 at 2:15














              66












              66








              66





              $begingroup$

              The error lies in the fact that when decreasing $1$ you may get out of the set $mathbb{N}$ - and indeed, $max{1,2}=max{0,1}+1$, but $0 ne 1$, and $0notin mathbb{N}$ as you defined it.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              The error lies in the fact that when decreasing $1$ you may get out of the set $mathbb{N}$ - and indeed, $max{1,2}=max{0,1}+1$, but $0 ne 1$, and $0notin mathbb{N}$ as you defined it.







              share|cite|improve this answer












              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer










              answered Mar 27 '13 at 1:20









              Alfonso FernandezAlfonso Fernandez

              3,46221421




              3,46221421












              • $begingroup$
                But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:38








              • 24




                $begingroup$
                @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:45












              • $begingroup$
                you are right !
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:47










              • $begingroup$
                All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 28 '13 at 1:11






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 28 '13 at 2:15


















              • $begingroup$
                But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:38








              • 24




                $begingroup$
                @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:45












              • $begingroup$
                you are right !
                $endgroup$
                – Lucian Depold
                Mar 27 '13 at 15:47










              • $begingroup$
                All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 28 '13 at 1:11






              • 8




                $begingroup$
                @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
                $endgroup$
                – Alfonso Fernandez
                Mar 28 '13 at 2:15
















              $begingroup$
              But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
              $endgroup$
              – Lucian Depold
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:38






              $begingroup$
              But what would be wrong, if the proof did not target N but Z ?! Then the proof would still not be right & it would be possible to decrease 1...
              $endgroup$
              – Lucian Depold
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:38






              24




              24




              $begingroup$
              @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
              $endgroup$
              – Alfonso Fernandez
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:45






              $begingroup$
              @LucianDepold if the numbers were in $mathbb{Z}$, you wouldn't be able to provide a base case...
              $endgroup$
              – Alfonso Fernandez
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:45














              $begingroup$
              you are right !
              $endgroup$
              – Lucian Depold
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:47




              $begingroup$
              you are right !
              $endgroup$
              – Lucian Depold
              Mar 27 '13 at 15:47












              $begingroup$
              All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
              $endgroup$
              – Kaz
              Mar 28 '13 at 1:11




              $begingroup$
              All of this is false. You can make a minor modification to the "proof" which leaves it just as obtuse, but avoids this issue. For instance, suppose it says `Now let $max(a+1,b+1) = k+1$. Then $max(a, b) = k$, and by the assumption, $a = b$. Look, even shorter!
              $endgroup$
              – Kaz
              Mar 28 '13 at 1:11




              8




              8




              $begingroup$
              @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
              $endgroup$
              – Alfonso Fernandez
              Mar 28 '13 at 2:15




              $begingroup$
              @Kaz That's still the same mistake: you can't assume that two natural numbers can be written as $a+1,b+1$ where $a,b$ are natural. Namely, it fails for $(a+1,b+1)=(1,2)$.
              $endgroup$
              – Alfonso Fernandez
              Mar 28 '13 at 2:15











              30












              $begingroup$

              The problem starts with this sentence:




              Now assume that it holds for $m = k$ for some number $k$.




              Assume that what holds for some $k$? What is the it that is to be assumed holds?



              If $max(a, b) = k$, it means that either




              • $a = k cap 1 le b lt k$; or

              • $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$; or

              • $a = b = k$.


              In the special case $k = 1$, the first two cases are ruled out, but they are not ruled out when $k > 1$. So what the proof is assuming true for any $k$ is just the third case:




              • $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = k$


              So this is basically a case of incomplete case analysis: conveniently ignoring cases in the general truth, because they do not occur in the base case, and simply proceeding from the base case via induction without further considering the missing cases.



              Another issue with the proof is that it only argues for the equality of the variables $a = b$. This conclusion does not permit us to believe that all numbers are equal. For that, it would be necessary to prove something like $a = a - 1$, for any $a$, which then connects with the base case $a = 1$. To goal of the proof should be to show that any two arbitrarily chosen natural numbers $a$ and $b$ are equal. But in the proof, $a$ and $b$ are anything but independent of each other, or of the parameter $k$.



              For the proof to even try to show that the numbers are equal, what it requires us to believe is not simply that $a = b = k$ for an arbitrary $k$, but in fact that literally the original base relation holds for arbitrary $k$. Namely that $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = 1$ just like in the base case where $k = m = 1$. This is actually the it which is to be assumed. But of course, that just begs the question! If we simply assume that all numbers are equal to 1, then of course they are all equal, Q.E.D.



              The proof obfuscates its poor logic by actually not stating it, and alluding to it via the pronoun it which has no clear antecedent. It makes an overture which hints at an inductive structure (base case, inductive step) and hopes that the reader's mind will somehow blunder in trying to connect the pieces.



              One more flaw is this use of $a$ and $b$ as distractors to obfuscate vacuous truths. In induction along a single discrete variable, we have some logical proposition $P(n)$ which we show to be true for some base cases, for example showing that $P(1)$ is true. Then we show that the inductive hypothesis is true: namely $P(k)implies P(k + 1)$. The statement $P$ consists of some equation which involves only functions of $k$, and no other independent variables. If symbols other than $k$ appear, they are either constants, or functions of $k$ (dependent variables). In our proof, the variables $a$ and $b$ are such functions of $k$. In fact, it is assumed that $a = b = k$. So $max(a, b) = k$ really means $max(k, k) = k$, and $a = b$ just means $k = k$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
                $endgroup$
                – Leo
                Mar 27 '13 at 14:26






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
                $endgroup$
                – Marc van Leeuwen
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:01












              • $begingroup$
                @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:37








              • 2




                $begingroup$
                This deserves more upvotes!!!
                $endgroup$
                – Pedro Tamaroff
                Mar 28 '13 at 5:34






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
                $endgroup$
                – 6005
                Jul 19 '15 at 16:53


















              30












              $begingroup$

              The problem starts with this sentence:




              Now assume that it holds for $m = k$ for some number $k$.




              Assume that what holds for some $k$? What is the it that is to be assumed holds?



              If $max(a, b) = k$, it means that either




              • $a = k cap 1 le b lt k$; or

              • $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$; or

              • $a = b = k$.


              In the special case $k = 1$, the first two cases are ruled out, but they are not ruled out when $k > 1$. So what the proof is assuming true for any $k$ is just the third case:




              • $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = k$


              So this is basically a case of incomplete case analysis: conveniently ignoring cases in the general truth, because they do not occur in the base case, and simply proceeding from the base case via induction without further considering the missing cases.



              Another issue with the proof is that it only argues for the equality of the variables $a = b$. This conclusion does not permit us to believe that all numbers are equal. For that, it would be necessary to prove something like $a = a - 1$, for any $a$, which then connects with the base case $a = 1$. To goal of the proof should be to show that any two arbitrarily chosen natural numbers $a$ and $b$ are equal. But in the proof, $a$ and $b$ are anything but independent of each other, or of the parameter $k$.



              For the proof to even try to show that the numbers are equal, what it requires us to believe is not simply that $a = b = k$ for an arbitrary $k$, but in fact that literally the original base relation holds for arbitrary $k$. Namely that $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = 1$ just like in the base case where $k = m = 1$. This is actually the it which is to be assumed. But of course, that just begs the question! If we simply assume that all numbers are equal to 1, then of course they are all equal, Q.E.D.



              The proof obfuscates its poor logic by actually not stating it, and alluding to it via the pronoun it which has no clear antecedent. It makes an overture which hints at an inductive structure (base case, inductive step) and hopes that the reader's mind will somehow blunder in trying to connect the pieces.



              One more flaw is this use of $a$ and $b$ as distractors to obfuscate vacuous truths. In induction along a single discrete variable, we have some logical proposition $P(n)$ which we show to be true for some base cases, for example showing that $P(1)$ is true. Then we show that the inductive hypothesis is true: namely $P(k)implies P(k + 1)$. The statement $P$ consists of some equation which involves only functions of $k$, and no other independent variables. If symbols other than $k$ appear, they are either constants, or functions of $k$ (dependent variables). In our proof, the variables $a$ and $b$ are such functions of $k$. In fact, it is assumed that $a = b = k$. So $max(a, b) = k$ really means $max(k, k) = k$, and $a = b$ just means $k = k$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$













              • $begingroup$
                +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
                $endgroup$
                – Leo
                Mar 27 '13 at 14:26






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
                $endgroup$
                – Marc van Leeuwen
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:01












              • $begingroup$
                @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:37








              • 2




                $begingroup$
                This deserves more upvotes!!!
                $endgroup$
                – Pedro Tamaroff
                Mar 28 '13 at 5:34






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
                $endgroup$
                – 6005
                Jul 19 '15 at 16:53
















              30












              30








              30





              $begingroup$

              The problem starts with this sentence:




              Now assume that it holds for $m = k$ for some number $k$.




              Assume that what holds for some $k$? What is the it that is to be assumed holds?



              If $max(a, b) = k$, it means that either




              • $a = k cap 1 le b lt k$; or

              • $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$; or

              • $a = b = k$.


              In the special case $k = 1$, the first two cases are ruled out, but they are not ruled out when $k > 1$. So what the proof is assuming true for any $k$ is just the third case:




              • $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = k$


              So this is basically a case of incomplete case analysis: conveniently ignoring cases in the general truth, because they do not occur in the base case, and simply proceeding from the base case via induction without further considering the missing cases.



              Another issue with the proof is that it only argues for the equality of the variables $a = b$. This conclusion does not permit us to believe that all numbers are equal. For that, it would be necessary to prove something like $a = a - 1$, for any $a$, which then connects with the base case $a = 1$. To goal of the proof should be to show that any two arbitrarily chosen natural numbers $a$ and $b$ are equal. But in the proof, $a$ and $b$ are anything but independent of each other, or of the parameter $k$.



              For the proof to even try to show that the numbers are equal, what it requires us to believe is not simply that $a = b = k$ for an arbitrary $k$, but in fact that literally the original base relation holds for arbitrary $k$. Namely that $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = 1$ just like in the base case where $k = m = 1$. This is actually the it which is to be assumed. But of course, that just begs the question! If we simply assume that all numbers are equal to 1, then of course they are all equal, Q.E.D.



              The proof obfuscates its poor logic by actually not stating it, and alluding to it via the pronoun it which has no clear antecedent. It makes an overture which hints at an inductive structure (base case, inductive step) and hopes that the reader's mind will somehow blunder in trying to connect the pieces.



              One more flaw is this use of $a$ and $b$ as distractors to obfuscate vacuous truths. In induction along a single discrete variable, we have some logical proposition $P(n)$ which we show to be true for some base cases, for example showing that $P(1)$ is true. Then we show that the inductive hypothesis is true: namely $P(k)implies P(k + 1)$. The statement $P$ consists of some equation which involves only functions of $k$, and no other independent variables. If symbols other than $k$ appear, they are either constants, or functions of $k$ (dependent variables). In our proof, the variables $a$ and $b$ are such functions of $k$. In fact, it is assumed that $a = b = k$. So $max(a, b) = k$ really means $max(k, k) = k$, and $a = b$ just means $k = k$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$



              The problem starts with this sentence:




              Now assume that it holds for $m = k$ for some number $k$.




              Assume that what holds for some $k$? What is the it that is to be assumed holds?



              If $max(a, b) = k$, it means that either




              • $a = k cap 1 le b lt k$; or

              • $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$; or

              • $a = b = k$.


              In the special case $k = 1$, the first two cases are ruled out, but they are not ruled out when $k > 1$. So what the proof is assuming true for any $k$ is just the third case:




              • $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = k$


              So this is basically a case of incomplete case analysis: conveniently ignoring cases in the general truth, because they do not occur in the base case, and simply proceeding from the base case via induction without further considering the missing cases.



              Another issue with the proof is that it only argues for the equality of the variables $a = b$. This conclusion does not permit us to believe that all numbers are equal. For that, it would be necessary to prove something like $a = a - 1$, for any $a$, which then connects with the base case $a = 1$. To goal of the proof should be to show that any two arbitrarily chosen natural numbers $a$ and $b$ are equal. But in the proof, $a$ and $b$ are anything but independent of each other, or of the parameter $k$.



              For the proof to even try to show that the numbers are equal, what it requires us to believe is not simply that $a = b = k$ for an arbitrary $k$, but in fact that literally the original base relation holds for arbitrary $k$. Namely that $max(a, b) = k implies a = b = 1$ just like in the base case where $k = m = 1$. This is actually the it which is to be assumed. But of course, that just begs the question! If we simply assume that all numbers are equal to 1, then of course they are all equal, Q.E.D.



              The proof obfuscates its poor logic by actually not stating it, and alluding to it via the pronoun it which has no clear antecedent. It makes an overture which hints at an inductive structure (base case, inductive step) and hopes that the reader's mind will somehow blunder in trying to connect the pieces.



              One more flaw is this use of $a$ and $b$ as distractors to obfuscate vacuous truths. In induction along a single discrete variable, we have some logical proposition $P(n)$ which we show to be true for some base cases, for example showing that $P(1)$ is true. Then we show that the inductive hypothesis is true: namely $P(k)implies P(k + 1)$. The statement $P$ consists of some equation which involves only functions of $k$, and no other independent variables. If symbols other than $k$ appear, they are either constants, or functions of $k$ (dependent variables). In our proof, the variables $a$ and $b$ are such functions of $k$. In fact, it is assumed that $a = b = k$. So $max(a, b) = k$ really means $max(k, k) = k$, and $a = b$ just means $k = k$.







              share|cite|improve this answer














              share|cite|improve this answer



              share|cite|improve this answer








              edited Mar 28 '13 at 1:17

























              answered Mar 27 '13 at 2:47









              KazKaz

              6,24311328




              6,24311328












              • $begingroup$
                +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
                $endgroup$
                – Leo
                Mar 27 '13 at 14:26






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
                $endgroup$
                – Marc van Leeuwen
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:01












              • $begingroup$
                @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:37








              • 2




                $begingroup$
                This deserves more upvotes!!!
                $endgroup$
                – Pedro Tamaroff
                Mar 28 '13 at 5:34






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
                $endgroup$
                – 6005
                Jul 19 '15 at 16:53




















              • $begingroup$
                +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
                $endgroup$
                – Leo
                Mar 27 '13 at 14:26






              • 2




                $begingroup$
                I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
                $endgroup$
                – Marc van Leeuwen
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:01












              • $begingroup$
                @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
                $endgroup$
                – Kaz
                Mar 27 '13 at 18:37








              • 2




                $begingroup$
                This deserves more upvotes!!!
                $endgroup$
                – Pedro Tamaroff
                Mar 28 '13 at 5:34






              • 1




                $begingroup$
                This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
                $endgroup$
                – 6005
                Jul 19 '15 at 16:53


















              $begingroup$
              +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
              $endgroup$
              – Leo
              Mar 27 '13 at 14:26




              $begingroup$
              +1, very good explanation. The second case should be $b = k cap 1 le a lt k$.
              $endgroup$
              – Leo
              Mar 27 '13 at 14:26




              2




              2




              $begingroup$
              I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
              $endgroup$
              – Marc van Leeuwen
              Mar 27 '13 at 18:01






              $begingroup$
              I don't agree. What the induction step is assuming is that whenever $a,binBbb N$ and $max(a,b)=k$ then (it has been proven that) $a=b$. Now to prove the same for $a',b'inBbb n$ with $max(a',b')=k+1$, it tries to apply the indiction hypothesis for $a=a'-1$ and $b=b'-1$. There is no case analysis. The only error is that the proof forgets the necessary check of the condition $a,binBbb N$ of the induction hypothesis, which of cours cannot be ensured.
              $endgroup$
              – Marc van Leeuwen
              Mar 27 '13 at 18:01














              $begingroup$
              @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
              $endgroup$
              – Kaz
              Mar 27 '13 at 18:37






              $begingroup$
              @MarcVanLeeuwen Ha, I was just revising the answer as you wrote your comment. The poor case analysis is a flaw, but not really the smoking gun.
              $endgroup$
              – Kaz
              Mar 27 '13 at 18:37






              2




              2




              $begingroup$
              This deserves more upvotes!!!
              $endgroup$
              – Pedro Tamaroff
              Mar 28 '13 at 5:34




              $begingroup$
              This deserves more upvotes!!!
              $endgroup$
              – Pedro Tamaroff
              Mar 28 '13 at 5:34




              1




              1




              $begingroup$
              This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
              $endgroup$
              – 6005
              Jul 19 '15 at 16:53






              $begingroup$
              This answer is not particularly relevant. What was assumed in the induction step ("assume that it holds for m=k") was the following: for all integers $a,b$ with $max(a,b) = k$, $a = b$. This is completely fine; no cases were ignored; there was no assumed equality between $a$ and $b$. The error was then concluding from this that for all $a, b$ with $max(a,b) = k+1$, $a = b$, which does not follow, because $a-1, b-1$ could lie outside the natural numbers, as has already been explained by the top answer.
              $endgroup$
              – 6005
              Jul 19 '15 at 16:53













              29












              $begingroup$

              Hint:



              The smallest case where your "theorem" is obviously wrong is the set ${1,2}$. Now check every step of the "proof" with this example. What goes wrong?






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                29












                $begingroup$

                Hint:



                The smallest case where your "theorem" is obviously wrong is the set ${1,2}$. Now check every step of the "proof" with this example. What goes wrong?






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  29












                  29








                  29





                  $begingroup$

                  Hint:



                  The smallest case where your "theorem" is obviously wrong is the set ${1,2}$. Now check every step of the "proof" with this example. What goes wrong?






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Hint:



                  The smallest case where your "theorem" is obviously wrong is the set ${1,2}$. Now check every step of the "proof" with this example. What goes wrong?







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Mar 27 '13 at 1:47

























                  answered Mar 27 '13 at 1:20









                  azimutazimut

                  16.4k1051100




                  16.4k1051100























                      14












                      $begingroup$

                      It's true that $a-1$ and $b-1$ may not be in the naturals, but what this fact is really getting at is that you don't have enough initial conditions. The argument is phrased to hide this. Instead of writing the claim as:
                      $$forall a, forall ble a,a = b = max{a,b}$$
                      which shows that we have to induct over $a$, and then within this, induct over $b$, or perhaps as,
                      $$forall (a,b)in mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}, a = b = max{a,b} $$
                      which would require us to impose an ordering on $mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$ and induct along this ordering, it is written as:
                      $$forall m, m = max{a,b}, m = a = b$$
                      Which hides the quantifiers on $a$ and $b$ (namely, ex. $forall a,b le m$).






                      share|cite|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$


















                        14












                        $begingroup$

                        It's true that $a-1$ and $b-1$ may not be in the naturals, but what this fact is really getting at is that you don't have enough initial conditions. The argument is phrased to hide this. Instead of writing the claim as:
                        $$forall a, forall ble a,a = b = max{a,b}$$
                        which shows that we have to induct over $a$, and then within this, induct over $b$, or perhaps as,
                        $$forall (a,b)in mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}, a = b = max{a,b} $$
                        which would require us to impose an ordering on $mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$ and induct along this ordering, it is written as:
                        $$forall m, m = max{a,b}, m = a = b$$
                        Which hides the quantifiers on $a$ and $b$ (namely, ex. $forall a,b le m$).






                        share|cite|improve this answer









                        $endgroup$
















                          14












                          14








                          14





                          $begingroup$

                          It's true that $a-1$ and $b-1$ may not be in the naturals, but what this fact is really getting at is that you don't have enough initial conditions. The argument is phrased to hide this. Instead of writing the claim as:
                          $$forall a, forall ble a,a = b = max{a,b}$$
                          which shows that we have to induct over $a$, and then within this, induct over $b$, or perhaps as,
                          $$forall (a,b)in mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}, a = b = max{a,b} $$
                          which would require us to impose an ordering on $mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$ and induct along this ordering, it is written as:
                          $$forall m, m = max{a,b}, m = a = b$$
                          Which hides the quantifiers on $a$ and $b$ (namely, ex. $forall a,b le m$).






                          share|cite|improve this answer









                          $endgroup$



                          It's true that $a-1$ and $b-1$ may not be in the naturals, but what this fact is really getting at is that you don't have enough initial conditions. The argument is phrased to hide this. Instead of writing the claim as:
                          $$forall a, forall ble a,a = b = max{a,b}$$
                          which shows that we have to induct over $a$, and then within this, induct over $b$, or perhaps as,
                          $$forall (a,b)in mathbb{N}timesmathbb{N}, a = b = max{a,b} $$
                          which would require us to impose an ordering on $mathbb{N} times mathbb{N}$ and induct along this ordering, it is written as:
                          $$forall m, m = max{a,b}, m = a = b$$
                          Which hides the quantifiers on $a$ and $b$ (namely, ex. $forall a,b le m$).







                          share|cite|improve this answer












                          share|cite|improve this answer



                          share|cite|improve this answer










                          answered Mar 27 '13 at 1:49









                          LukeLuke

                          1513




                          1513























                              11












                              $begingroup$

                              One obvious problem is that $a-1$ or $b-1$ might be zero. So for $m = 2 $ you have for example $2 = max{1,2}$ and $1 = max{0,1}$.






                              share|cite|improve this answer









                              $endgroup$


















                                11












                                $begingroup$

                                One obvious problem is that $a-1$ or $b-1$ might be zero. So for $m = 2 $ you have for example $2 = max{1,2}$ and $1 = max{0,1}$.






                                share|cite|improve this answer









                                $endgroup$
















                                  11












                                  11








                                  11





                                  $begingroup$

                                  One obvious problem is that $a-1$ or $b-1$ might be zero. So for $m = 2 $ you have for example $2 = max{1,2}$ and $1 = max{0,1}$.






                                  share|cite|improve this answer









                                  $endgroup$



                                  One obvious problem is that $a-1$ or $b-1$ might be zero. So for $m = 2 $ you have for example $2 = max{1,2}$ and $1 = max{0,1}$.







                                  share|cite|improve this answer












                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                  share|cite|improve this answer










                                  answered Mar 27 '13 at 1:21









                                  ThomasThomas

                                  35.5k1056116




                                  35.5k1056116























                                      5












                                      $begingroup$

                                      Sneaky induction proofs always fail in the same way (or at least all the ones I've seen do): the induction step doesn't apply to the base case. When you say, "assume the theorem holds for $m$", you naturally think of $m$ as arbitrary, and hence moderately large. But $m$ is any natural number, so you have to check all of them.



                                      This is very similar to the inductive every horse is the same color proof (in fact, it's probably just the same "proof" reworded in terms of natural numbers). In that proof, there is the same fallacy: the induction step does not apply to the base case (if you take two distinct $2 - 1$ element subsets of a $2$ element set, they do not intersect).






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$









                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Marc van Leeuwen
                                        Mar 27 '13 at 18:14


















                                      5












                                      $begingroup$

                                      Sneaky induction proofs always fail in the same way (or at least all the ones I've seen do): the induction step doesn't apply to the base case. When you say, "assume the theorem holds for $m$", you naturally think of $m$ as arbitrary, and hence moderately large. But $m$ is any natural number, so you have to check all of them.



                                      This is very similar to the inductive every horse is the same color proof (in fact, it's probably just the same "proof" reworded in terms of natural numbers). In that proof, there is the same fallacy: the induction step does not apply to the base case (if you take two distinct $2 - 1$ element subsets of a $2$ element set, they do not intersect).






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$









                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Marc van Leeuwen
                                        Mar 27 '13 at 18:14
















                                      5












                                      5








                                      5





                                      $begingroup$

                                      Sneaky induction proofs always fail in the same way (or at least all the ones I've seen do): the induction step doesn't apply to the base case. When you say, "assume the theorem holds for $m$", you naturally think of $m$ as arbitrary, and hence moderately large. But $m$ is any natural number, so you have to check all of them.



                                      This is very similar to the inductive every horse is the same color proof (in fact, it's probably just the same "proof" reworded in terms of natural numbers). In that proof, there is the same fallacy: the induction step does not apply to the base case (if you take two distinct $2 - 1$ element subsets of a $2$ element set, they do not intersect).






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$



                                      Sneaky induction proofs always fail in the same way (or at least all the ones I've seen do): the induction step doesn't apply to the base case. When you say, "assume the theorem holds for $m$", you naturally think of $m$ as arbitrary, and hence moderately large. But $m$ is any natural number, so you have to check all of them.



                                      This is very similar to the inductive every horse is the same color proof (in fact, it's probably just the same "proof" reworded in terms of natural numbers). In that proof, there is the same fallacy: the induction step does not apply to the base case (if you take two distinct $2 - 1$ element subsets of a $2$ element set, they do not intersect).







                                      share|cite|improve this answer












                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                      share|cite|improve this answer










                                      answered Mar 27 '13 at 7:23









                                      asmeurerasmeurer

                                      5,86742443




                                      5,86742443








                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Marc van Leeuwen
                                        Mar 27 '13 at 18:14
















                                      • 1




                                        $begingroup$
                                        No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
                                        $endgroup$
                                        – Marc van Leeuwen
                                        Mar 27 '13 at 18:14










                                      1




                                      1




                                      $begingroup$
                                      No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Marc van Leeuwen
                                      Mar 27 '13 at 18:14






                                      $begingroup$
                                      No, in this proof every instance of the induction step fails, as the lesser of $a,b$ can always be $1$, no matter what value $max(a,b)$ has. And antyway saying "the induction step doesn't apply to the base case" is not precise, as the base case and the induction step are disjoint (and almost in all correct induction proofs the induction step must use somewhere that this is not the base case). You mean the smallest instance of the induction step, just beyond the base case.
                                      $endgroup$
                                      – Marc van Leeuwen
                                      Mar 27 '13 at 18:14













                                      4












                                      $begingroup$

                                      Hint $ $ Here is a constructive viewpoint. We use $,0,$ vs. $,1,$ as base case. Suppose we have a natural number computer that has no subtraction operation, but does have a decrement operation. Then we can reduce equality testing of naturals to zero testing, by implementing a recursive algorithm that continually decrements both numbers $rm a= b !iff! a!-!1 = b!-!1!iff! a!-!2 = b!-!2!iffcdots:$ till we reach the "base" case where one is zero; then we test if the other is zero using the zero-test operation. Notice that the algorithm terminates in "base" cases of the form $rm:n = 0:$ or $rm: 0 = n,:$ not in a single base case $rm: 0 = 0.:$ The given "proof" can be viewed as an implementation of this algorithm, presuming that the recursion always terminates in the single base case $,0 = 0,$ (or $1 =1$ using $rm,n=1,$ as base case). If that were true, then the equality test would indeed always return true.






                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                      $endgroup$


















                                        4












                                        $begingroup$

                                        Hint $ $ Here is a constructive viewpoint. We use $,0,$ vs. $,1,$ as base case. Suppose we have a natural number computer that has no subtraction operation, but does have a decrement operation. Then we can reduce equality testing of naturals to zero testing, by implementing a recursive algorithm that continually decrements both numbers $rm a= b !iff! a!-!1 = b!-!1!iff! a!-!2 = b!-!2!iffcdots:$ till we reach the "base" case where one is zero; then we test if the other is zero using the zero-test operation. Notice that the algorithm terminates in "base" cases of the form $rm:n = 0:$ or $rm: 0 = n,:$ not in a single base case $rm: 0 = 0.:$ The given "proof" can be viewed as an implementation of this algorithm, presuming that the recursion always terminates in the single base case $,0 = 0,$ (or $1 =1$ using $rm,n=1,$ as base case). If that were true, then the equality test would indeed always return true.






                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                        $endgroup$
















                                          4












                                          4








                                          4





                                          $begingroup$

                                          Hint $ $ Here is a constructive viewpoint. We use $,0,$ vs. $,1,$ as base case. Suppose we have a natural number computer that has no subtraction operation, but does have a decrement operation. Then we can reduce equality testing of naturals to zero testing, by implementing a recursive algorithm that continually decrements both numbers $rm a= b !iff! a!-!1 = b!-!1!iff! a!-!2 = b!-!2!iffcdots:$ till we reach the "base" case where one is zero; then we test if the other is zero using the zero-test operation. Notice that the algorithm terminates in "base" cases of the form $rm:n = 0:$ or $rm: 0 = n,:$ not in a single base case $rm: 0 = 0.:$ The given "proof" can be viewed as an implementation of this algorithm, presuming that the recursion always terminates in the single base case $,0 = 0,$ (or $1 =1$ using $rm,n=1,$ as base case). If that were true, then the equality test would indeed always return true.






                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                          $endgroup$



                                          Hint $ $ Here is a constructive viewpoint. We use $,0,$ vs. $,1,$ as base case. Suppose we have a natural number computer that has no subtraction operation, but does have a decrement operation. Then we can reduce equality testing of naturals to zero testing, by implementing a recursive algorithm that continually decrements both numbers $rm a= b !iff! a!-!1 = b!-!1!iff! a!-!2 = b!-!2!iffcdots:$ till we reach the "base" case where one is zero; then we test if the other is zero using the zero-test operation. Notice that the algorithm terminates in "base" cases of the form $rm:n = 0:$ or $rm: 0 = n,:$ not in a single base case $rm: 0 = 0.:$ The given "proof" can be viewed as an implementation of this algorithm, presuming that the recursion always terminates in the single base case $,0 = 0,$ (or $1 =1$ using $rm,n=1,$ as base case). If that were true, then the equality test would indeed always return true.







                                          share|cite|improve this answer












                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                          share|cite|improve this answer










                                          answered Mar 27 '13 at 2:14









                                          Math GemsMath Gems

                                          17k11938




                                          17k11938























                                              1












                                              $begingroup$

                                              "Then max{a−1,b−1}=k and thus by assumption a−1=b−1"

                                              This seems to be the problem in the explanation

                                              By which assumption should these be equal?

                                              The only prior statement that talks about the arguments to max{ } being equal is when k = 1, and that is a specific case and not for any general value

                                              Also, this might be related






                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                              $endgroup$


















                                                1












                                                $begingroup$

                                                "Then max{a−1,b−1}=k and thus by assumption a−1=b−1"

                                                This seems to be the problem in the explanation

                                                By which assumption should these be equal?

                                                The only prior statement that talks about the arguments to max{ } being equal is when k = 1, and that is a specific case and not for any general value

                                                Also, this might be related






                                                share|cite|improve this answer











                                                $endgroup$
















                                                  1












                                                  1








                                                  1





                                                  $begingroup$

                                                  "Then max{a−1,b−1}=k and thus by assumption a−1=b−1"

                                                  This seems to be the problem in the explanation

                                                  By which assumption should these be equal?

                                                  The only prior statement that talks about the arguments to max{ } being equal is when k = 1, and that is a specific case and not for any general value

                                                  Also, this might be related






                                                  share|cite|improve this answer











                                                  $endgroup$



                                                  "Then max{a−1,b−1}=k and thus by assumption a−1=b−1"

                                                  This seems to be the problem in the explanation

                                                  By which assumption should these be equal?

                                                  The only prior statement that talks about the arguments to max{ } being equal is when k = 1, and that is a specific case and not for any general value

                                                  Also, this might be related







                                                  share|cite|improve this answer














                                                  share|cite|improve this answer



                                                  share|cite|improve this answer








                                                  edited Apr 13 '17 at 12:20









                                                  Community

                                                  1




                                                  1










                                                  answered Mar 27 '13 at 4:24









                                                  user13267user13267

                                                  2301418




                                                  2301418























                                                      1












                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      If all natural numbers were equal, then for $m=1$, $a=b=1$ but for $m=2$ there have to be some numbers that are greater than $1$! Therefore not all numbers are equal! The induction itself uses natural numbers, that differ from each other. $m=1$ differs from the value $m=2$ ! And with that we try to prove that they don't differ !






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                                      $endgroup$









                                                      • 3




                                                        $begingroup$
                                                        The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – azimut
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:26










                                                      • $begingroup$
                                                        yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – Lucian Depold
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:29
















                                                      1












                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      If all natural numbers were equal, then for $m=1$, $a=b=1$ but for $m=2$ there have to be some numbers that are greater than $1$! Therefore not all numbers are equal! The induction itself uses natural numbers, that differ from each other. $m=1$ differs from the value $m=2$ ! And with that we try to prove that they don't differ !






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                                      $endgroup$









                                                      • 3




                                                        $begingroup$
                                                        The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – azimut
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:26










                                                      • $begingroup$
                                                        yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – Lucian Depold
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:29














                                                      1












                                                      1








                                                      1





                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      If all natural numbers were equal, then for $m=1$, $a=b=1$ but for $m=2$ there have to be some numbers that are greater than $1$! Therefore not all numbers are equal! The induction itself uses natural numbers, that differ from each other. $m=1$ differs from the value $m=2$ ! And with that we try to prove that they don't differ !






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer











                                                      $endgroup$



                                                      If all natural numbers were equal, then for $m=1$, $a=b=1$ but for $m=2$ there have to be some numbers that are greater than $1$! Therefore not all numbers are equal! The induction itself uses natural numbers, that differ from each other. $m=1$ differs from the value $m=2$ ! And with that we try to prove that they don't differ !







                                                      share|cite|improve this answer














                                                      share|cite|improve this answer



                                                      share|cite|improve this answer








                                                      edited May 8 '13 at 12:01

























                                                      answered Mar 27 '13 at 8:39









                                                      Lucian DepoldLucian Depold

                                                      1195




                                                      1195








                                                      • 3




                                                        $begingroup$
                                                        The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – azimut
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:26










                                                      • $begingroup$
                                                        yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – Lucian Depold
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:29














                                                      • 3




                                                        $begingroup$
                                                        The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – azimut
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:26










                                                      • $begingroup$
                                                        yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
                                                        $endgroup$
                                                        – Lucian Depold
                                                        Mar 27 '13 at 15:29








                                                      3




                                                      3




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – azimut
                                                      Mar 27 '13 at 15:26




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      The question was not if all natural numbers are equal, but why the given proof for this (obviously wrong) statement is incorrect.
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – azimut
                                                      Mar 27 '13 at 15:26












                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Lucian Depold
                                                      Mar 27 '13 at 15:29




                                                      $begingroup$
                                                      yes i know. the the induction step from m=1 to m=2 contains already the contradiction, i wanted to point that out
                                                      $endgroup$
                                                      – Lucian Depold
                                                      Mar 27 '13 at 15:29











                                                      -1












                                                      $begingroup$

                                                      If $m=2$ then, following your demonstration we have $m=max{a,b}Rightarrow max{a-1,b-1}=1Rightarrow a-1=b-1Rightarrow a=b=2$. So $a$ and $b$ MOST be equal 2. So in general this will only works when $a=b$. That's the error, when $aneq b$ it just won't work.






                                                      share|cite|improve this answer









                                                      $endgroup$


















                                                        -1












                                                        $begingroup$

                                                        If $m=2$ then, following your demonstration we have $m=max{a,b}Rightarrow max{a-1,b-1}=1Rightarrow a-1=b-1Rightarrow a=b=2$. So $a$ and $b$ MOST be equal 2. So in general this will only works when $a=b$. That's the error, when $aneq b$ it just won't work.






                                                        share|cite|improve this answer









                                                        $endgroup$
















                                                          -1












                                                          -1








                                                          -1





                                                          $begingroup$

                                                          If $m=2$ then, following your demonstration we have $m=max{a,b}Rightarrow max{a-1,b-1}=1Rightarrow a-1=b-1Rightarrow a=b=2$. So $a$ and $b$ MOST be equal 2. So in general this will only works when $a=b$. That's the error, when $aneq b$ it just won't work.






                                                          share|cite|improve this answer









                                                          $endgroup$



                                                          If $m=2$ then, following your demonstration we have $m=max{a,b}Rightarrow max{a-1,b-1}=1Rightarrow a-1=b-1Rightarrow a=b=2$. So $a$ and $b$ MOST be equal 2. So in general this will only works when $a=b$. That's the error, when $aneq b$ it just won't work.







                                                          share|cite|improve this answer












                                                          share|cite|improve this answer



                                                          share|cite|improve this answer










                                                          answered Mar 27 '13 at 15:39









                                                          rimanriman

                                                          11




                                                          11























                                                              -1












                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              the first assumption was $m=k$ or $max(a,b)=k$, but the theory is letting $max(a,b)=k+1$ meaning "$max(a,b)=max(a,b)+1$" which drives the proof wrong!






                                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$













                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – awllower
                                                                Mar 27 '13 at 12:19
















                                                              -1












                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              the first assumption was $m=k$ or $max(a,b)=k$, but the theory is letting $max(a,b)=k+1$ meaning "$max(a,b)=max(a,b)+1$" which drives the proof wrong!






                                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$













                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – awllower
                                                                Mar 27 '13 at 12:19














                                                              -1












                                                              -1








                                                              -1





                                                              $begingroup$

                                                              the first assumption was $m=k$ or $max(a,b)=k$, but the theory is letting $max(a,b)=k+1$ meaning "$max(a,b)=max(a,b)+1$" which drives the proof wrong!






                                                              share|cite|improve this answer











                                                              $endgroup$



                                                              the first assumption was $m=k$ or $max(a,b)=k$, but the theory is letting $max(a,b)=k+1$ meaning "$max(a,b)=max(a,b)+1$" which drives the proof wrong!







                                                              share|cite|improve this answer














                                                              share|cite|improve this answer



                                                              share|cite|improve this answer








                                                              edited Mar 27 '13 at 16:31









                                                              robjohn

                                                              267k27308632




                                                              267k27308632










                                                              answered Mar 27 '13 at 11:57









                                                              messmess

                                                              1




                                                              1












                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – awllower
                                                                Mar 27 '13 at 12:19


















                                                              • $begingroup$
                                                                The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                                                                $endgroup$
                                                                – awllower
                                                                Mar 27 '13 at 12:19
















                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – awllower
                                                              Mar 27 '13 at 12:19




                                                              $begingroup$
                                                              The theory does contradict the assumption: we proceed by induction. And the assumption is the privious step, not an assumption in the next step.
                                                              $endgroup$
                                                              – awllower
                                                              Mar 27 '13 at 12:19





                                                              protected by T. Bongers Dec 14 '18 at 16:39



                                                              Thank you for your interest in this question.
                                                              Because it has attracted low-quality or spam answers that had to be removed, posting an answer now requires 10 reputation on this site (the association bonus does not count).



                                                              Would you like to answer one of these unanswered questions instead?



                                                              Popular posts from this blog

                                                              Quarter-circle Tiles

                                                              build a pushdown automaton that recognizes the reverse language of a given pushdown automaton?

                                                              Mont Emei