Would readers feel cheated if the villain is successful in convincing the protagonist to change sides?
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
So I'm writing a story where the main character is sent to kill the main villain. I have the basic world set out before me, and now I focus on story. I was planning out the main storyline and I hit a bit of a snag... uh-oh. I was thinking that the main character could get to the "villain" and go through that painful talk that all villains feel like they need to have, you know, where the hero is tied up, and they reveal their plan for some reason. But this time I was thinking it would actually work, and the hero would start working with the main "villain".
I initially thought that I wouldn't be cheated but then I started thinking about how I would actually react to this happening. Like, how upset I would be if I sat there reading this book, growing a hatred for the villain, and then all of a sudden I'm supposed to like them.
This brings me to my question. If I wrote this story this way, with the villain being successful in "the talk", would readers feel cheated out of half of a book or can it be done in a way that makes it a good experience?
fiction characters
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
So I'm writing a story where the main character is sent to kill the main villain. I have the basic world set out before me, and now I focus on story. I was planning out the main storyline and I hit a bit of a snag... uh-oh. I was thinking that the main character could get to the "villain" and go through that painful talk that all villains feel like they need to have, you know, where the hero is tied up, and they reveal their plan for some reason. But this time I was thinking it would actually work, and the hero would start working with the main "villain".
I initially thought that I wouldn't be cheated but then I started thinking about how I would actually react to this happening. Like, how upset I would be if I sat there reading this book, growing a hatred for the villain, and then all of a sudden I'm supposed to like them.
This brings me to my question. If I wrote this story this way, with the villain being successful in "the talk", would readers feel cheated out of half of a book or can it be done in a way that makes it a good experience?
fiction characters
2
Why would the villain trust the hero in the first place? The expectation from the point of view of the villain would be: Hero is bound and helpless -> hero agrees to support villain -> villain releases hero -> hero stabs villain and ruins villains plan. If you capture someone and they'd then claim to support you, I'd be very hesitant to believe them, no matter how good the speech actually was...
– Morfildur
14 hours ago
2
Could do the opposite way. Hero captures villain. Villain explains his plan and his reasons on the way to prison / execution. Hero changes sides.
– elPolloLoco
11 hours ago
3
Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagues the Wise? Suffice to say, it happens often and can be pretty fun to watch. The Star Wars reference was taken from the talk that flipped a character from good to evil and was the most loved film of that trilogy. This mostly had the force of the fact that the hero was a popular villain in the original trilogy. Star Trek DS9 had a fun story where the hero not only joined the Bond villain, but destroyed the world for him, much to the Villain's shock and audience laughs.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another episode of DS9 played this much more seriously and had the hero engaging in what would be a plot worthy of a villain in the series and admits to no remorse in his deeds... in fact, he finds himself agreeing the evil influence that the trade off (saving the galaxy vs. his own self-respect) was actually a pretty good deal.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another famous example, for which the link itself even is a major spoiler.
– jpmc26
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
So I'm writing a story where the main character is sent to kill the main villain. I have the basic world set out before me, and now I focus on story. I was planning out the main storyline and I hit a bit of a snag... uh-oh. I was thinking that the main character could get to the "villain" and go through that painful talk that all villains feel like they need to have, you know, where the hero is tied up, and they reveal their plan for some reason. But this time I was thinking it would actually work, and the hero would start working with the main "villain".
I initially thought that I wouldn't be cheated but then I started thinking about how I would actually react to this happening. Like, how upset I would be if I sat there reading this book, growing a hatred for the villain, and then all of a sudden I'm supposed to like them.
This brings me to my question. If I wrote this story this way, with the villain being successful in "the talk", would readers feel cheated out of half of a book or can it be done in a way that makes it a good experience?
fiction characters
So I'm writing a story where the main character is sent to kill the main villain. I have the basic world set out before me, and now I focus on story. I was planning out the main storyline and I hit a bit of a snag... uh-oh. I was thinking that the main character could get to the "villain" and go through that painful talk that all villains feel like they need to have, you know, where the hero is tied up, and they reveal their plan for some reason. But this time I was thinking it would actually work, and the hero would start working with the main "villain".
I initially thought that I wouldn't be cheated but then I started thinking about how I would actually react to this happening. Like, how upset I would be if I sat there reading this book, growing a hatred for the villain, and then all of a sudden I'm supposed to like them.
This brings me to my question. If I wrote this story this way, with the villain being successful in "the talk", would readers feel cheated out of half of a book or can it be done in a way that makes it a good experience?
fiction characters
fiction characters
asked 20 hours ago
M.Wallace
9614
9614
2
Why would the villain trust the hero in the first place? The expectation from the point of view of the villain would be: Hero is bound and helpless -> hero agrees to support villain -> villain releases hero -> hero stabs villain and ruins villains plan. If you capture someone and they'd then claim to support you, I'd be very hesitant to believe them, no matter how good the speech actually was...
– Morfildur
14 hours ago
2
Could do the opposite way. Hero captures villain. Villain explains his plan and his reasons on the way to prison / execution. Hero changes sides.
– elPolloLoco
11 hours ago
3
Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagues the Wise? Suffice to say, it happens often and can be pretty fun to watch. The Star Wars reference was taken from the talk that flipped a character from good to evil and was the most loved film of that trilogy. This mostly had the force of the fact that the hero was a popular villain in the original trilogy. Star Trek DS9 had a fun story where the hero not only joined the Bond villain, but destroyed the world for him, much to the Villain's shock and audience laughs.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another episode of DS9 played this much more seriously and had the hero engaging in what would be a plot worthy of a villain in the series and admits to no remorse in his deeds... in fact, he finds himself agreeing the evil influence that the trade off (saving the galaxy vs. his own self-respect) was actually a pretty good deal.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another famous example, for which the link itself even is a major spoiler.
– jpmc26
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
2
Why would the villain trust the hero in the first place? The expectation from the point of view of the villain would be: Hero is bound and helpless -> hero agrees to support villain -> villain releases hero -> hero stabs villain and ruins villains plan. If you capture someone and they'd then claim to support you, I'd be very hesitant to believe them, no matter how good the speech actually was...
– Morfildur
14 hours ago
2
Could do the opposite way. Hero captures villain. Villain explains his plan and his reasons on the way to prison / execution. Hero changes sides.
– elPolloLoco
11 hours ago
3
Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagues the Wise? Suffice to say, it happens often and can be pretty fun to watch. The Star Wars reference was taken from the talk that flipped a character from good to evil and was the most loved film of that trilogy. This mostly had the force of the fact that the hero was a popular villain in the original trilogy. Star Trek DS9 had a fun story where the hero not only joined the Bond villain, but destroyed the world for him, much to the Villain's shock and audience laughs.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another episode of DS9 played this much more seriously and had the hero engaging in what would be a plot worthy of a villain in the series and admits to no remorse in his deeds... in fact, he finds himself agreeing the evil influence that the trade off (saving the galaxy vs. his own self-respect) was actually a pretty good deal.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another famous example, for which the link itself even is a major spoiler.
– jpmc26
3 hours ago
2
2
Why would the villain trust the hero in the first place? The expectation from the point of view of the villain would be: Hero is bound and helpless -> hero agrees to support villain -> villain releases hero -> hero stabs villain and ruins villains plan. If you capture someone and they'd then claim to support you, I'd be very hesitant to believe them, no matter how good the speech actually was...
– Morfildur
14 hours ago
Why would the villain trust the hero in the first place? The expectation from the point of view of the villain would be: Hero is bound and helpless -> hero agrees to support villain -> villain releases hero -> hero stabs villain and ruins villains plan. If you capture someone and they'd then claim to support you, I'd be very hesitant to believe them, no matter how good the speech actually was...
– Morfildur
14 hours ago
2
2
Could do the opposite way. Hero captures villain. Villain explains his plan and his reasons on the way to prison / execution. Hero changes sides.
– elPolloLoco
11 hours ago
Could do the opposite way. Hero captures villain. Villain explains his plan and his reasons on the way to prison / execution. Hero changes sides.
– elPolloLoco
11 hours ago
3
3
Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagues the Wise? Suffice to say, it happens often and can be pretty fun to watch. The Star Wars reference was taken from the talk that flipped a character from good to evil and was the most loved film of that trilogy. This mostly had the force of the fact that the hero was a popular villain in the original trilogy. Star Trek DS9 had a fun story where the hero not only joined the Bond villain, but destroyed the world for him, much to the Villain's shock and audience laughs.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagues the Wise? Suffice to say, it happens often and can be pretty fun to watch. The Star Wars reference was taken from the talk that flipped a character from good to evil and was the most loved film of that trilogy. This mostly had the force of the fact that the hero was a popular villain in the original trilogy. Star Trek DS9 had a fun story where the hero not only joined the Bond villain, but destroyed the world for him, much to the Villain's shock and audience laughs.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
1
Another episode of DS9 played this much more seriously and had the hero engaging in what would be a plot worthy of a villain in the series and admits to no remorse in his deeds... in fact, he finds himself agreeing the evil influence that the trade off (saving the galaxy vs. his own self-respect) was actually a pretty good deal.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
Another episode of DS9 played this much more seriously and had the hero engaging in what would be a plot worthy of a villain in the series and admits to no remorse in his deeds... in fact, he finds himself agreeing the evil influence that the trade off (saving the galaxy vs. his own self-respect) was actually a pretty good deal.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
1
Another famous example, for which the link itself even is a major spoiler.
– jpmc26
3 hours ago
Another famous example, for which the link itself even is a major spoiler.
– jpmc26
3 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
up vote
21
down vote
The villain doesn't need to convince the protagonist as much as
you need to convince the reader.
If you can make it believeable to the reader that the protagonist changes sides, then it will be a satisfying read.
We often find out that our suspicions were mistaken in real life. For example, quite often a law enforcement agency finds out that their suspect was innocent. Why shouldn't that happen in a novel?
But you might also show how the villain manipulates the protagonist succesfully into believing an untruth. Protagonists don't always succeed, and this might be a story about a protagonist succumbing to some flaw. This too is something that happens in real life, where we often like to believe what we think should be true, but in fact isn't. If you manage to narrate this process convincingly, the reader will gladly follow you to your unhappy ending.
3
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
1
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
It's an unhappy ending if good does not triumph over evil.
Books and movies with unhappy endings are generally frowned upon, they tend to do poorly commercially. The successes amongst unhappy endings tend to be highly emotional, understandable cautionary tales; which means in a twisted way good still triumphs over evil, or at least evil leads somebody to a terrible end. The reader is following along with a character they like that descends into drug addiction, or crime, or losing their marriage, or corruption, etc, but they end up miserable or dead in the process.
The Escape Hatch ... Flip The Script
AKA role reversal. The villain proves to the MC that the MC has been duped, that he is a pawn of the people he thinks he is helping, or his management, etc. The villain doesn't convince the MC to be evil, the villain convinces the MC he has been working toward evil ends and the villain is doing good.
And instead of insisting the MC change sides, the villain gives him a chance to verify all this himself. After telling him all this, the villain, with the MC bound and a knife to his neck, says "I could kill you, and eliminate a threat. Remember that. But I won't, because I don't think you are evil. I'm going to set you free. Come back when you're ready to fight for what's right."
The reader following the MC is not disappointed, the twist does not mean the MC is now fighting on the side of evil. It means that the reader, like the MC, was duped into believing the villain was evil, but now understands the villain was good and the real villain is the queen that sent the MC out in the first place, trying to get rid of him so she can kill her husband and take power.
But the villain didn't kill the MC as she expected, the villain just pulled back the curtain to expose the queen as the real villain all along, and now the reader can believe the MC is still fighting for good, and the defeat of the queen represents the triumph of good over evil, so this is a happy ending.
Another Escape Hatch: Double Reversal.
A double reverse means the protagonist succumbs to the temptations of evil, but the "good" inside him eventually reasserts itself, and he reverse again: To the side of good, and defeats the villain after all.
Falling for the villain's talk is just another obstacle and failure along the way, this time within himself. You have a flawed protagonist. The next story is not exactly your situation, but consider a good cop. In a time of incredible financial hardship (e.g. he can't pay for the treatment his wife/mother/kid needs) he becomes a dirty cop. He gets deeper and deeper into being a dirty cop, until he accidentally shoots and kills an innocent witness he was trying to keep from exposing him. He covers that up successfully, but it weighs on him so much, he sacrifices himself in a blaze of glory to become, once again, a good cop.
Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like. It is depressing, and we read fiction to escape the real world, where evil often does triumph in the end, criminals and murderers and rapists and frauds get away with their predations, get insanely wealthy and/or powerful, and are never punished, dying peacefully in their sleep without a regret in the world.
You can write it if you want, perhaps it will be some kind of catharsis, but if your goal is to entertain people and have them like your story, then I'd suggest evil can be wildly successful in your story, but in the end, good must triumph over evil.
4
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
2
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
3
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
1
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
It could be interesting. Not all villains seem inclined to the talk, but having the hero listen and realize he was wrong could be refreshing.
Assuming your villain is a three dimensional character and your MC is likewise fully fleshed, there is no reason for this to feel a cheat. It would be a twist and likely change the direction of your story, but that can be a good thing.
Making a change of world view a logical move will be delicate and intriguing. What might induce the hero hell bent on destroying the villian to have an epiphany?
In one work I have set aside for the time, I was well into it when I discovered that my hero was actually an unknowing villain and the person he feared and hated the most was actually more of a reluctant hero. If my original ‘hero’ were not so blinded by his own prejudice, he could be persuaded that he was mistaken regarding the other man.
I mention that because your character must be capable of listening and hearing the truth even when spoken by the alleged villain.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
I'm adding my two cents to the answer of Rasdashan:
It can be refreshing, but you have to do it well
The main issue is that such a unexpected change has to be foreshadowed. If the story progressed exactly as you described, it would feel awful for the reader.
Imagine the classic setup:
Hero goes to villain -> gets captured -> Villain does villain talk -> Hero has change of heart
The first three steps are a well known, widely used tropes. If you add the last step without any warning signals, it will be too sudden and readers will be dissatisfied. In other words, you can't do it just for the sake of subverting a trope; you have to justify it and foreshadow it.
Make the whole contrast between good and evil be less black and white, and more in a moral grey area, where the villain is surely questionable, but the good guys are also.
Make the hero skeptical about some things happening on his side. Make the villain convincing, and give him some pretty good proofs that he's not doing evil per se, but his evil acts are the result of necessary sacrifices in a conflict.
A fervent paladin of light won't turn to evil over a talk. The seeds for his turning, and hence the plot twist, must be planted way before the actual twist. Your hero must stop and consider his actions, the actions of his enemy, and doubt the very nature of the conflict. Make the villain clear his doubts. Make the villain answer some of those pesky questions. Make the villain show "good faith", e.g. releasing the hero, making him see firsthand that his armies are, maybe, just badly portrayed, and that nobody in his city is drinking mulled wine from the skulls of young children.
Adding more on foreshadowing, feel free to see this question: Writing SE
I remember Brandon Sanderson saying, in an episode of the first season of the podcast writing excuses, that twists must be foreshadowed at least thrice. So, consider that.
TL,DR: place your conflict in a moral grey area. Foreshadow.
The villain doesn't have to convince only the hero. The readers must be convinced too, or at least convinced that the whole situation is believable.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
This is the main plot point behind the Anime series, Maoyu. The "Hero" goes to fight the "Demon King" to end the war and suffering of all the human people, but ends up being turned to the Demon King's side.
The Anime accomplishes this in a few ways:
It doesn't give us much time at all to feel the Demon King is actually a terrible evil.
The Anime opens with the Hero about to enter the Demon King's castle to face off. We're only really told this is a great evil force, not shown. This makes it easier to accept that maybe the Demon King isn't so evil after all.
It makes the Demon King completely opposite of every expectation both the Hero and viewer have.
This is what really gets the Hero to actually listen in the first place. Perhaps your Ultimate Evil is actually a 14 year old, trying their best to fill the shoes of those before them while slowly changing the evil organization.
It takes pains to identify the "true evil" (and show this time, instead of just tell) and dissociates the Demon King with it.
These are the three biggest methods I see to defy the viewer's expectations and turn what might be hate into empathy. How you accomplish this is up to you, but your end goal shouldn't be convincing the Hero as much as convincing the the reader. If you can't win the reader over to the other side, they'll be stuck hating your main character, no matter how realistic it is for the MC to act this way.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
A Number of Choices
Villain is Not Truly Evil
In spite of our initial impression, the villain is either: doing something good, completely misunderstood, or falsely portrayed to the protagonist.
Even if he is planning something and upsetting some people, it may not end up hurting anyone (not anyone who matters, at least).
The villain could even be trying to help. Imagine if I said I wanted to infect a bunch of people with cowpox (mild illness) first, and then inject them with smallpox (severe illness) afterward. That sounds horrible unless you know that I am proving a theory of vaccination which suggests they will become immune to smallpox after recovering from cowpox.
Hero Becomes Evil
This is usually a punch to the gut if the reader actually likes the hero. Maybe it is temporary. However, if this change is permanent then your entire story has to be built to accommodate it.
Betrayal
The hero is only pretending to change sides. By the end, the villain will be confronted in satisfying fashion.
If you intend to keep this a secret, you'll have to choose carefully which type of narrator you use; readers will feel cheated if you have a close narrator who knows everything the hero thinks but "hides" this plan.
You'll need to provide some credible reason for the villain to accept the change of heart.
Means to an End
The hero has realized something is at stake which is far more important than the current conflict. The hero teams up with the villain to deal with it---perhaps sincerely, or perhaps with the intention of disposing of the villain along the way.
You will have to tie the villain's plans or resources into the larger issue somehow, and readers must believe that the players and their decisions are authentic.
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
21
down vote
The villain doesn't need to convince the protagonist as much as
you need to convince the reader.
If you can make it believeable to the reader that the protagonist changes sides, then it will be a satisfying read.
We often find out that our suspicions were mistaken in real life. For example, quite often a law enforcement agency finds out that their suspect was innocent. Why shouldn't that happen in a novel?
But you might also show how the villain manipulates the protagonist succesfully into believing an untruth. Protagonists don't always succeed, and this might be a story about a protagonist succumbing to some flaw. This too is something that happens in real life, where we often like to believe what we think should be true, but in fact isn't. If you manage to narrate this process convincingly, the reader will gladly follow you to your unhappy ending.
3
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
1
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
The villain doesn't need to convince the protagonist as much as
you need to convince the reader.
If you can make it believeable to the reader that the protagonist changes sides, then it will be a satisfying read.
We often find out that our suspicions were mistaken in real life. For example, quite often a law enforcement agency finds out that their suspect was innocent. Why shouldn't that happen in a novel?
But you might also show how the villain manipulates the protagonist succesfully into believing an untruth. Protagonists don't always succeed, and this might be a story about a protagonist succumbing to some flaw. This too is something that happens in real life, where we often like to believe what we think should be true, but in fact isn't. If you manage to narrate this process convincingly, the reader will gladly follow you to your unhappy ending.
3
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
1
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
up vote
21
down vote
The villain doesn't need to convince the protagonist as much as
you need to convince the reader.
If you can make it believeable to the reader that the protagonist changes sides, then it will be a satisfying read.
We often find out that our suspicions were mistaken in real life. For example, quite often a law enforcement agency finds out that their suspect was innocent. Why shouldn't that happen in a novel?
But you might also show how the villain manipulates the protagonist succesfully into believing an untruth. Protagonists don't always succeed, and this might be a story about a protagonist succumbing to some flaw. This too is something that happens in real life, where we often like to believe what we think should be true, but in fact isn't. If you manage to narrate this process convincingly, the reader will gladly follow you to your unhappy ending.
The villain doesn't need to convince the protagonist as much as
you need to convince the reader.
If you can make it believeable to the reader that the protagonist changes sides, then it will be a satisfying read.
We often find out that our suspicions were mistaken in real life. For example, quite often a law enforcement agency finds out that their suspect was innocent. Why shouldn't that happen in a novel?
But you might also show how the villain manipulates the protagonist succesfully into believing an untruth. Protagonists don't always succeed, and this might be a story about a protagonist succumbing to some flaw. This too is something that happens in real life, where we often like to believe what we think should be true, but in fact isn't. If you manage to narrate this process convincingly, the reader will gladly follow you to your unhappy ending.
answered 18 hours ago
user57423
755110
755110
3
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
1
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
add a comment |
3
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
1
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
3
3
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
To clarify, I think this answer describes two very different cases: 1) The villain convinces both the protagonist and the reader. The protagonist will still seem to be in the right, and so the story will be satisfying. (Some of the best stories I've seen are where an apparent villain turns out not to be.) 2) The villain convinces the protagonist, but NOT the reader. This has a very different dynamic; it could be a classical tragedy where the protagonist's character flaws lead to their downfall. This would need some motivating, but could also be satisfying in a different way.
– gidds
6 hours ago
1
1
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
+1. Note that Orwell's 1984 is a concrete example of the latter case - the goal there isn't to give the reader enjoyment, but to underscore a particular message. That message would need to be sold convincingly and thoroughly beforehand.
– HammerN'Songs
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
To further expound on @gidds, in both cases you're subverting the "protagonist = good; antagonist = bad" trope, but you're coming at it from different sides. In case 1) you're changing things to "antagonist = good". This works if you can convince the reader that, despite what happened in Act 1&2, the antagonist was a good guy all along. The case 2) approach is where the antagonist stays bad, but drags the protagonist down to the bad side with him. This is harder to pull off and cuts off a "happy ending", but there's plenty of room for flawed-hero tragic/grimdark stories these days.
– R.M.
5 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
@gidds In the second case the writer has to convince the reader that the villain managed to manipulate the protagonist.
– user57423
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
10
down vote
It's an unhappy ending if good does not triumph over evil.
Books and movies with unhappy endings are generally frowned upon, they tend to do poorly commercially. The successes amongst unhappy endings tend to be highly emotional, understandable cautionary tales; which means in a twisted way good still triumphs over evil, or at least evil leads somebody to a terrible end. The reader is following along with a character they like that descends into drug addiction, or crime, or losing their marriage, or corruption, etc, but they end up miserable or dead in the process.
The Escape Hatch ... Flip The Script
AKA role reversal. The villain proves to the MC that the MC has been duped, that he is a pawn of the people he thinks he is helping, or his management, etc. The villain doesn't convince the MC to be evil, the villain convinces the MC he has been working toward evil ends and the villain is doing good.
And instead of insisting the MC change sides, the villain gives him a chance to verify all this himself. After telling him all this, the villain, with the MC bound and a knife to his neck, says "I could kill you, and eliminate a threat. Remember that. But I won't, because I don't think you are evil. I'm going to set you free. Come back when you're ready to fight for what's right."
The reader following the MC is not disappointed, the twist does not mean the MC is now fighting on the side of evil. It means that the reader, like the MC, was duped into believing the villain was evil, but now understands the villain was good and the real villain is the queen that sent the MC out in the first place, trying to get rid of him so she can kill her husband and take power.
But the villain didn't kill the MC as she expected, the villain just pulled back the curtain to expose the queen as the real villain all along, and now the reader can believe the MC is still fighting for good, and the defeat of the queen represents the triumph of good over evil, so this is a happy ending.
Another Escape Hatch: Double Reversal.
A double reverse means the protagonist succumbs to the temptations of evil, but the "good" inside him eventually reasserts itself, and he reverse again: To the side of good, and defeats the villain after all.
Falling for the villain's talk is just another obstacle and failure along the way, this time within himself. You have a flawed protagonist. The next story is not exactly your situation, but consider a good cop. In a time of incredible financial hardship (e.g. he can't pay for the treatment his wife/mother/kid needs) he becomes a dirty cop. He gets deeper and deeper into being a dirty cop, until he accidentally shoots and kills an innocent witness he was trying to keep from exposing him. He covers that up successfully, but it weighs on him so much, he sacrifices himself in a blaze of glory to become, once again, a good cop.
Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like. It is depressing, and we read fiction to escape the real world, where evil often does triumph in the end, criminals and murderers and rapists and frauds get away with their predations, get insanely wealthy and/or powerful, and are never punished, dying peacefully in their sleep without a regret in the world.
You can write it if you want, perhaps it will be some kind of catharsis, but if your goal is to entertain people and have them like your story, then I'd suggest evil can be wildly successful in your story, but in the end, good must triumph over evil.
4
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
2
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
3
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
1
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
10
down vote
It's an unhappy ending if good does not triumph over evil.
Books and movies with unhappy endings are generally frowned upon, they tend to do poorly commercially. The successes amongst unhappy endings tend to be highly emotional, understandable cautionary tales; which means in a twisted way good still triumphs over evil, or at least evil leads somebody to a terrible end. The reader is following along with a character they like that descends into drug addiction, or crime, or losing their marriage, or corruption, etc, but they end up miserable or dead in the process.
The Escape Hatch ... Flip The Script
AKA role reversal. The villain proves to the MC that the MC has been duped, that he is a pawn of the people he thinks he is helping, or his management, etc. The villain doesn't convince the MC to be evil, the villain convinces the MC he has been working toward evil ends and the villain is doing good.
And instead of insisting the MC change sides, the villain gives him a chance to verify all this himself. After telling him all this, the villain, with the MC bound and a knife to his neck, says "I could kill you, and eliminate a threat. Remember that. But I won't, because I don't think you are evil. I'm going to set you free. Come back when you're ready to fight for what's right."
The reader following the MC is not disappointed, the twist does not mean the MC is now fighting on the side of evil. It means that the reader, like the MC, was duped into believing the villain was evil, but now understands the villain was good and the real villain is the queen that sent the MC out in the first place, trying to get rid of him so she can kill her husband and take power.
But the villain didn't kill the MC as she expected, the villain just pulled back the curtain to expose the queen as the real villain all along, and now the reader can believe the MC is still fighting for good, and the defeat of the queen represents the triumph of good over evil, so this is a happy ending.
Another Escape Hatch: Double Reversal.
A double reverse means the protagonist succumbs to the temptations of evil, but the "good" inside him eventually reasserts itself, and he reverse again: To the side of good, and defeats the villain after all.
Falling for the villain's talk is just another obstacle and failure along the way, this time within himself. You have a flawed protagonist. The next story is not exactly your situation, but consider a good cop. In a time of incredible financial hardship (e.g. he can't pay for the treatment his wife/mother/kid needs) he becomes a dirty cop. He gets deeper and deeper into being a dirty cop, until he accidentally shoots and kills an innocent witness he was trying to keep from exposing him. He covers that up successfully, but it weighs on him so much, he sacrifices himself in a blaze of glory to become, once again, a good cop.
Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like. It is depressing, and we read fiction to escape the real world, where evil often does triumph in the end, criminals and murderers and rapists and frauds get away with their predations, get insanely wealthy and/or powerful, and are never punished, dying peacefully in their sleep without a regret in the world.
You can write it if you want, perhaps it will be some kind of catharsis, but if your goal is to entertain people and have them like your story, then I'd suggest evil can be wildly successful in your story, but in the end, good must triumph over evil.
4
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
2
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
3
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
1
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
10
down vote
up vote
10
down vote
It's an unhappy ending if good does not triumph over evil.
Books and movies with unhappy endings are generally frowned upon, they tend to do poorly commercially. The successes amongst unhappy endings tend to be highly emotional, understandable cautionary tales; which means in a twisted way good still triumphs over evil, or at least evil leads somebody to a terrible end. The reader is following along with a character they like that descends into drug addiction, or crime, or losing their marriage, or corruption, etc, but they end up miserable or dead in the process.
The Escape Hatch ... Flip The Script
AKA role reversal. The villain proves to the MC that the MC has been duped, that he is a pawn of the people he thinks he is helping, or his management, etc. The villain doesn't convince the MC to be evil, the villain convinces the MC he has been working toward evil ends and the villain is doing good.
And instead of insisting the MC change sides, the villain gives him a chance to verify all this himself. After telling him all this, the villain, with the MC bound and a knife to his neck, says "I could kill you, and eliminate a threat. Remember that. But I won't, because I don't think you are evil. I'm going to set you free. Come back when you're ready to fight for what's right."
The reader following the MC is not disappointed, the twist does not mean the MC is now fighting on the side of evil. It means that the reader, like the MC, was duped into believing the villain was evil, but now understands the villain was good and the real villain is the queen that sent the MC out in the first place, trying to get rid of him so she can kill her husband and take power.
But the villain didn't kill the MC as she expected, the villain just pulled back the curtain to expose the queen as the real villain all along, and now the reader can believe the MC is still fighting for good, and the defeat of the queen represents the triumph of good over evil, so this is a happy ending.
Another Escape Hatch: Double Reversal.
A double reverse means the protagonist succumbs to the temptations of evil, but the "good" inside him eventually reasserts itself, and he reverse again: To the side of good, and defeats the villain after all.
Falling for the villain's talk is just another obstacle and failure along the way, this time within himself. You have a flawed protagonist. The next story is not exactly your situation, but consider a good cop. In a time of incredible financial hardship (e.g. he can't pay for the treatment his wife/mother/kid needs) he becomes a dirty cop. He gets deeper and deeper into being a dirty cop, until he accidentally shoots and kills an innocent witness he was trying to keep from exposing him. He covers that up successfully, but it weighs on him so much, he sacrifices himself in a blaze of glory to become, once again, a good cop.
Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like. It is depressing, and we read fiction to escape the real world, where evil often does triumph in the end, criminals and murderers and rapists and frauds get away with their predations, get insanely wealthy and/or powerful, and are never punished, dying peacefully in their sleep without a regret in the world.
You can write it if you want, perhaps it will be some kind of catharsis, but if your goal is to entertain people and have them like your story, then I'd suggest evil can be wildly successful in your story, but in the end, good must triumph over evil.
It's an unhappy ending if good does not triumph over evil.
Books and movies with unhappy endings are generally frowned upon, they tend to do poorly commercially. The successes amongst unhappy endings tend to be highly emotional, understandable cautionary tales; which means in a twisted way good still triumphs over evil, or at least evil leads somebody to a terrible end. The reader is following along with a character they like that descends into drug addiction, or crime, or losing their marriage, or corruption, etc, but they end up miserable or dead in the process.
The Escape Hatch ... Flip The Script
AKA role reversal. The villain proves to the MC that the MC has been duped, that he is a pawn of the people he thinks he is helping, or his management, etc. The villain doesn't convince the MC to be evil, the villain convinces the MC he has been working toward evil ends and the villain is doing good.
And instead of insisting the MC change sides, the villain gives him a chance to verify all this himself. After telling him all this, the villain, with the MC bound and a knife to his neck, says "I could kill you, and eliminate a threat. Remember that. But I won't, because I don't think you are evil. I'm going to set you free. Come back when you're ready to fight for what's right."
The reader following the MC is not disappointed, the twist does not mean the MC is now fighting on the side of evil. It means that the reader, like the MC, was duped into believing the villain was evil, but now understands the villain was good and the real villain is the queen that sent the MC out in the first place, trying to get rid of him so she can kill her husband and take power.
But the villain didn't kill the MC as she expected, the villain just pulled back the curtain to expose the queen as the real villain all along, and now the reader can believe the MC is still fighting for good, and the defeat of the queen represents the triumph of good over evil, so this is a happy ending.
Another Escape Hatch: Double Reversal.
A double reverse means the protagonist succumbs to the temptations of evil, but the "good" inside him eventually reasserts itself, and he reverse again: To the side of good, and defeats the villain after all.
Falling for the villain's talk is just another obstacle and failure along the way, this time within himself. You have a flawed protagonist. The next story is not exactly your situation, but consider a good cop. In a time of incredible financial hardship (e.g. he can't pay for the treatment his wife/mother/kid needs) he becomes a dirty cop. He gets deeper and deeper into being a dirty cop, until he accidentally shoots and kills an innocent witness he was trying to keep from exposing him. He covers that up successfully, but it weighs on him so much, he sacrifices himself in a blaze of glory to become, once again, a good cop.
Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like. It is depressing, and we read fiction to escape the real world, where evil often does triumph in the end, criminals and murderers and rapists and frauds get away with their predations, get insanely wealthy and/or powerful, and are never punished, dying peacefully in their sleep without a regret in the world.
You can write it if you want, perhaps it will be some kind of catharsis, but if your goal is to entertain people and have them like your story, then I'd suggest evil can be wildly successful in your story, but in the end, good must triumph over evil.
answered 12 hours ago
Amadeus
44.8k355143
44.8k355143
4
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
2
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
3
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
1
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
4
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
2
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
3
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
1
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
4
4
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
Are unhappy endings really frowned upon? If so by who? I would say that from the point of view of literary value it's the tragedies that tend to stay with us much more than the comedies. I would say that for each well known author who wrote books that ended well I can name at least 3 who wrote tragedies of the same time. Shakespear's comedies are IMO certainly rated much lower than his tragedies, Hamlet, Othello, Romeo & Juliet and Macbeth are definitely the masterpieces not Taming of the shrew or Merchant of Venice (I'm ignoring the awful ones). Is this just my feeling?
– DRF
12 hours ago
2
2
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@DRF, evil doesn't get to triumph in Shakespeare's tragedies: Claudius and Iago don't get to enjoy a "victory". The tragedy lies only in the price of "restoring order". I think it was a literary standard in Shakespeare's time that in the end, "order" must be restored. There is, however, at least one famous modern exception to "Evil Triumphs In The End is not generally a story people like": George Orwell's 1984.
– Galastel
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
@Galastel True I suppose mostly everyone loses in most classical tragedies.
– DRF
12 hours ago
3
3
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
@wetcircuit The post says unhappy endings are frowned upon. Not specifically don't glorify evil.
– DRF
11 hours ago
1
1
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
Ahh, I see what you are saying. Agree that @Amadeus seems to be arguing against "sad" or "downer" endings in general (I had translated it in context of the OP). My bad. I see what you mean.
– wetcircuit
11 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
9
down vote
It could be interesting. Not all villains seem inclined to the talk, but having the hero listen and realize he was wrong could be refreshing.
Assuming your villain is a three dimensional character and your MC is likewise fully fleshed, there is no reason for this to feel a cheat. It would be a twist and likely change the direction of your story, but that can be a good thing.
Making a change of world view a logical move will be delicate and intriguing. What might induce the hero hell bent on destroying the villian to have an epiphany?
In one work I have set aside for the time, I was well into it when I discovered that my hero was actually an unknowing villain and the person he feared and hated the most was actually more of a reluctant hero. If my original ‘hero’ were not so blinded by his own prejudice, he could be persuaded that he was mistaken regarding the other man.
I mention that because your character must be capable of listening and hearing the truth even when spoken by the alleged villain.
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
It could be interesting. Not all villains seem inclined to the talk, but having the hero listen and realize he was wrong could be refreshing.
Assuming your villain is a three dimensional character and your MC is likewise fully fleshed, there is no reason for this to feel a cheat. It would be a twist and likely change the direction of your story, but that can be a good thing.
Making a change of world view a logical move will be delicate and intriguing. What might induce the hero hell bent on destroying the villian to have an epiphany?
In one work I have set aside for the time, I was well into it when I discovered that my hero was actually an unknowing villain and the person he feared and hated the most was actually more of a reluctant hero. If my original ‘hero’ were not so blinded by his own prejudice, he could be persuaded that he was mistaken regarding the other man.
I mention that because your character must be capable of listening and hearing the truth even when spoken by the alleged villain.
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
It could be interesting. Not all villains seem inclined to the talk, but having the hero listen and realize he was wrong could be refreshing.
Assuming your villain is a three dimensional character and your MC is likewise fully fleshed, there is no reason for this to feel a cheat. It would be a twist and likely change the direction of your story, but that can be a good thing.
Making a change of world view a logical move will be delicate and intriguing. What might induce the hero hell bent on destroying the villian to have an epiphany?
In one work I have set aside for the time, I was well into it when I discovered that my hero was actually an unknowing villain and the person he feared and hated the most was actually more of a reluctant hero. If my original ‘hero’ were not so blinded by his own prejudice, he could be persuaded that he was mistaken regarding the other man.
I mention that because your character must be capable of listening and hearing the truth even when spoken by the alleged villain.
It could be interesting. Not all villains seem inclined to the talk, but having the hero listen and realize he was wrong could be refreshing.
Assuming your villain is a three dimensional character and your MC is likewise fully fleshed, there is no reason for this to feel a cheat. It would be a twist and likely change the direction of your story, but that can be a good thing.
Making a change of world view a logical move will be delicate and intriguing. What might induce the hero hell bent on destroying the villian to have an epiphany?
In one work I have set aside for the time, I was well into it when I discovered that my hero was actually an unknowing villain and the person he feared and hated the most was actually more of a reluctant hero. If my original ‘hero’ were not so blinded by his own prejudice, he could be persuaded that he was mistaken regarding the other man.
I mention that because your character must be capable of listening and hearing the truth even when spoken by the alleged villain.
answered 18 hours ago
Rasdashan
2,305724
2,305724
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
I'm adding my two cents to the answer of Rasdashan:
It can be refreshing, but you have to do it well
The main issue is that such a unexpected change has to be foreshadowed. If the story progressed exactly as you described, it would feel awful for the reader.
Imagine the classic setup:
Hero goes to villain -> gets captured -> Villain does villain talk -> Hero has change of heart
The first three steps are a well known, widely used tropes. If you add the last step without any warning signals, it will be too sudden and readers will be dissatisfied. In other words, you can't do it just for the sake of subverting a trope; you have to justify it and foreshadow it.
Make the whole contrast between good and evil be less black and white, and more in a moral grey area, where the villain is surely questionable, but the good guys are also.
Make the hero skeptical about some things happening on his side. Make the villain convincing, and give him some pretty good proofs that he's not doing evil per se, but his evil acts are the result of necessary sacrifices in a conflict.
A fervent paladin of light won't turn to evil over a talk. The seeds for his turning, and hence the plot twist, must be planted way before the actual twist. Your hero must stop and consider his actions, the actions of his enemy, and doubt the very nature of the conflict. Make the villain clear his doubts. Make the villain answer some of those pesky questions. Make the villain show "good faith", e.g. releasing the hero, making him see firsthand that his armies are, maybe, just badly portrayed, and that nobody in his city is drinking mulled wine from the skulls of young children.
Adding more on foreshadowing, feel free to see this question: Writing SE
I remember Brandon Sanderson saying, in an episode of the first season of the podcast writing excuses, that twists must be foreshadowed at least thrice. So, consider that.
TL,DR: place your conflict in a moral grey area. Foreshadow.
The villain doesn't have to convince only the hero. The readers must be convinced too, or at least convinced that the whole situation is believable.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
I'm adding my two cents to the answer of Rasdashan:
It can be refreshing, but you have to do it well
The main issue is that such a unexpected change has to be foreshadowed. If the story progressed exactly as you described, it would feel awful for the reader.
Imagine the classic setup:
Hero goes to villain -> gets captured -> Villain does villain talk -> Hero has change of heart
The first three steps are a well known, widely used tropes. If you add the last step without any warning signals, it will be too sudden and readers will be dissatisfied. In other words, you can't do it just for the sake of subverting a trope; you have to justify it and foreshadow it.
Make the whole contrast between good and evil be less black and white, and more in a moral grey area, where the villain is surely questionable, but the good guys are also.
Make the hero skeptical about some things happening on his side. Make the villain convincing, and give him some pretty good proofs that he's not doing evil per se, but his evil acts are the result of necessary sacrifices in a conflict.
A fervent paladin of light won't turn to evil over a talk. The seeds for his turning, and hence the plot twist, must be planted way before the actual twist. Your hero must stop and consider his actions, the actions of his enemy, and doubt the very nature of the conflict. Make the villain clear his doubts. Make the villain answer some of those pesky questions. Make the villain show "good faith", e.g. releasing the hero, making him see firsthand that his armies are, maybe, just badly portrayed, and that nobody in his city is drinking mulled wine from the skulls of young children.
Adding more on foreshadowing, feel free to see this question: Writing SE
I remember Brandon Sanderson saying, in an episode of the first season of the podcast writing excuses, that twists must be foreshadowed at least thrice. So, consider that.
TL,DR: place your conflict in a moral grey area. Foreshadow.
The villain doesn't have to convince only the hero. The readers must be convinced too, or at least convinced that the whole situation is believable.
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
I'm adding my two cents to the answer of Rasdashan:
It can be refreshing, but you have to do it well
The main issue is that such a unexpected change has to be foreshadowed. If the story progressed exactly as you described, it would feel awful for the reader.
Imagine the classic setup:
Hero goes to villain -> gets captured -> Villain does villain talk -> Hero has change of heart
The first three steps are a well known, widely used tropes. If you add the last step without any warning signals, it will be too sudden and readers will be dissatisfied. In other words, you can't do it just for the sake of subverting a trope; you have to justify it and foreshadow it.
Make the whole contrast between good and evil be less black and white, and more in a moral grey area, where the villain is surely questionable, but the good guys are also.
Make the hero skeptical about some things happening on his side. Make the villain convincing, and give him some pretty good proofs that he's not doing evil per se, but his evil acts are the result of necessary sacrifices in a conflict.
A fervent paladin of light won't turn to evil over a talk. The seeds for his turning, and hence the plot twist, must be planted way before the actual twist. Your hero must stop and consider his actions, the actions of his enemy, and doubt the very nature of the conflict. Make the villain clear his doubts. Make the villain answer some of those pesky questions. Make the villain show "good faith", e.g. releasing the hero, making him see firsthand that his armies are, maybe, just badly portrayed, and that nobody in his city is drinking mulled wine from the skulls of young children.
Adding more on foreshadowing, feel free to see this question: Writing SE
I remember Brandon Sanderson saying, in an episode of the first season of the podcast writing excuses, that twists must be foreshadowed at least thrice. So, consider that.
TL,DR: place your conflict in a moral grey area. Foreshadow.
The villain doesn't have to convince only the hero. The readers must be convinced too, or at least convinced that the whole situation is believable.
I'm adding my two cents to the answer of Rasdashan:
It can be refreshing, but you have to do it well
The main issue is that such a unexpected change has to be foreshadowed. If the story progressed exactly as you described, it would feel awful for the reader.
Imagine the classic setup:
Hero goes to villain -> gets captured -> Villain does villain talk -> Hero has change of heart
The first three steps are a well known, widely used tropes. If you add the last step without any warning signals, it will be too sudden and readers will be dissatisfied. In other words, you can't do it just for the sake of subverting a trope; you have to justify it and foreshadow it.
Make the whole contrast between good and evil be less black and white, and more in a moral grey area, where the villain is surely questionable, but the good guys are also.
Make the hero skeptical about some things happening on his side. Make the villain convincing, and give him some pretty good proofs that he's not doing evil per se, but his evil acts are the result of necessary sacrifices in a conflict.
A fervent paladin of light won't turn to evil over a talk. The seeds for his turning, and hence the plot twist, must be planted way before the actual twist. Your hero must stop and consider his actions, the actions of his enemy, and doubt the very nature of the conflict. Make the villain clear his doubts. Make the villain answer some of those pesky questions. Make the villain show "good faith", e.g. releasing the hero, making him see firsthand that his armies are, maybe, just badly portrayed, and that nobody in his city is drinking mulled wine from the skulls of young children.
Adding more on foreshadowing, feel free to see this question: Writing SE
I remember Brandon Sanderson saying, in an episode of the first season of the podcast writing excuses, that twists must be foreshadowed at least thrice. So, consider that.
TL,DR: place your conflict in a moral grey area. Foreshadow.
The villain doesn't have to convince only the hero. The readers must be convinced too, or at least convinced that the whole situation is believable.
answered 10 hours ago
Liquid
4,405940
4,405940
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
This is the main plot point behind the Anime series, Maoyu. The "Hero" goes to fight the "Demon King" to end the war and suffering of all the human people, but ends up being turned to the Demon King's side.
The Anime accomplishes this in a few ways:
It doesn't give us much time at all to feel the Demon King is actually a terrible evil.
The Anime opens with the Hero about to enter the Demon King's castle to face off. We're only really told this is a great evil force, not shown. This makes it easier to accept that maybe the Demon King isn't so evil after all.
It makes the Demon King completely opposite of every expectation both the Hero and viewer have.
This is what really gets the Hero to actually listen in the first place. Perhaps your Ultimate Evil is actually a 14 year old, trying their best to fill the shoes of those before them while slowly changing the evil organization.
It takes pains to identify the "true evil" (and show this time, instead of just tell) and dissociates the Demon King with it.
These are the three biggest methods I see to defy the viewer's expectations and turn what might be hate into empathy. How you accomplish this is up to you, but your end goal shouldn't be convincing the Hero as much as convincing the the reader. If you can't win the reader over to the other side, they'll be stuck hating your main character, no matter how realistic it is for the MC to act this way.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
This is the main plot point behind the Anime series, Maoyu. The "Hero" goes to fight the "Demon King" to end the war and suffering of all the human people, but ends up being turned to the Demon King's side.
The Anime accomplishes this in a few ways:
It doesn't give us much time at all to feel the Demon King is actually a terrible evil.
The Anime opens with the Hero about to enter the Demon King's castle to face off. We're only really told this is a great evil force, not shown. This makes it easier to accept that maybe the Demon King isn't so evil after all.
It makes the Demon King completely opposite of every expectation both the Hero and viewer have.
This is what really gets the Hero to actually listen in the first place. Perhaps your Ultimate Evil is actually a 14 year old, trying their best to fill the shoes of those before them while slowly changing the evil organization.
It takes pains to identify the "true evil" (and show this time, instead of just tell) and dissociates the Demon King with it.
These are the three biggest methods I see to defy the viewer's expectations and turn what might be hate into empathy. How you accomplish this is up to you, but your end goal shouldn't be convincing the Hero as much as convincing the the reader. If you can't win the reader over to the other side, they'll be stuck hating your main character, no matter how realistic it is for the MC to act this way.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
This is the main plot point behind the Anime series, Maoyu. The "Hero" goes to fight the "Demon King" to end the war and suffering of all the human people, but ends up being turned to the Demon King's side.
The Anime accomplishes this in a few ways:
It doesn't give us much time at all to feel the Demon King is actually a terrible evil.
The Anime opens with the Hero about to enter the Demon King's castle to face off. We're only really told this is a great evil force, not shown. This makes it easier to accept that maybe the Demon King isn't so evil after all.
It makes the Demon King completely opposite of every expectation both the Hero and viewer have.
This is what really gets the Hero to actually listen in the first place. Perhaps your Ultimate Evil is actually a 14 year old, trying their best to fill the shoes of those before them while slowly changing the evil organization.
It takes pains to identify the "true evil" (and show this time, instead of just tell) and dissociates the Demon King with it.
These are the three biggest methods I see to defy the viewer's expectations and turn what might be hate into empathy. How you accomplish this is up to you, but your end goal shouldn't be convincing the Hero as much as convincing the the reader. If you can't win the reader over to the other side, they'll be stuck hating your main character, no matter how realistic it is for the MC to act this way.
This is the main plot point behind the Anime series, Maoyu. The "Hero" goes to fight the "Demon King" to end the war and suffering of all the human people, but ends up being turned to the Demon King's side.
The Anime accomplishes this in a few ways:
It doesn't give us much time at all to feel the Demon King is actually a terrible evil.
The Anime opens with the Hero about to enter the Demon King's castle to face off. We're only really told this is a great evil force, not shown. This makes it easier to accept that maybe the Demon King isn't so evil after all.
It makes the Demon King completely opposite of every expectation both the Hero and viewer have.
This is what really gets the Hero to actually listen in the first place. Perhaps your Ultimate Evil is actually a 14 year old, trying their best to fill the shoes of those before them while slowly changing the evil organization.
It takes pains to identify the "true evil" (and show this time, instead of just tell) and dissociates the Demon King with it.
These are the three biggest methods I see to defy the viewer's expectations and turn what might be hate into empathy. How you accomplish this is up to you, but your end goal shouldn't be convincing the Hero as much as convincing the the reader. If you can't win the reader over to the other side, they'll be stuck hating your main character, no matter how realistic it is for the MC to act this way.
answered 8 hours ago
scohe001
28028
28028
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
A Number of Choices
Villain is Not Truly Evil
In spite of our initial impression, the villain is either: doing something good, completely misunderstood, or falsely portrayed to the protagonist.
Even if he is planning something and upsetting some people, it may not end up hurting anyone (not anyone who matters, at least).
The villain could even be trying to help. Imagine if I said I wanted to infect a bunch of people with cowpox (mild illness) first, and then inject them with smallpox (severe illness) afterward. That sounds horrible unless you know that I am proving a theory of vaccination which suggests they will become immune to smallpox after recovering from cowpox.
Hero Becomes Evil
This is usually a punch to the gut if the reader actually likes the hero. Maybe it is temporary. However, if this change is permanent then your entire story has to be built to accommodate it.
Betrayal
The hero is only pretending to change sides. By the end, the villain will be confronted in satisfying fashion.
If you intend to keep this a secret, you'll have to choose carefully which type of narrator you use; readers will feel cheated if you have a close narrator who knows everything the hero thinks but "hides" this plan.
You'll need to provide some credible reason for the villain to accept the change of heart.
Means to an End
The hero has realized something is at stake which is far more important than the current conflict. The hero teams up with the villain to deal with it---perhaps sincerely, or perhaps with the intention of disposing of the villain along the way.
You will have to tie the villain's plans or resources into the larger issue somehow, and readers must believe that the players and their decisions are authentic.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
A Number of Choices
Villain is Not Truly Evil
In spite of our initial impression, the villain is either: doing something good, completely misunderstood, or falsely portrayed to the protagonist.
Even if he is planning something and upsetting some people, it may not end up hurting anyone (not anyone who matters, at least).
The villain could even be trying to help. Imagine if I said I wanted to infect a bunch of people with cowpox (mild illness) first, and then inject them with smallpox (severe illness) afterward. That sounds horrible unless you know that I am proving a theory of vaccination which suggests they will become immune to smallpox after recovering from cowpox.
Hero Becomes Evil
This is usually a punch to the gut if the reader actually likes the hero. Maybe it is temporary. However, if this change is permanent then your entire story has to be built to accommodate it.
Betrayal
The hero is only pretending to change sides. By the end, the villain will be confronted in satisfying fashion.
If you intend to keep this a secret, you'll have to choose carefully which type of narrator you use; readers will feel cheated if you have a close narrator who knows everything the hero thinks but "hides" this plan.
You'll need to provide some credible reason for the villain to accept the change of heart.
Means to an End
The hero has realized something is at stake which is far more important than the current conflict. The hero teams up with the villain to deal with it---perhaps sincerely, or perhaps with the intention of disposing of the villain along the way.
You will have to tie the villain's plans or resources into the larger issue somehow, and readers must believe that the players and their decisions are authentic.
add a comment |
up vote
1
down vote
up vote
1
down vote
A Number of Choices
Villain is Not Truly Evil
In spite of our initial impression, the villain is either: doing something good, completely misunderstood, or falsely portrayed to the protagonist.
Even if he is planning something and upsetting some people, it may not end up hurting anyone (not anyone who matters, at least).
The villain could even be trying to help. Imagine if I said I wanted to infect a bunch of people with cowpox (mild illness) first, and then inject them with smallpox (severe illness) afterward. That sounds horrible unless you know that I am proving a theory of vaccination which suggests they will become immune to smallpox after recovering from cowpox.
Hero Becomes Evil
This is usually a punch to the gut if the reader actually likes the hero. Maybe it is temporary. However, if this change is permanent then your entire story has to be built to accommodate it.
Betrayal
The hero is only pretending to change sides. By the end, the villain will be confronted in satisfying fashion.
If you intend to keep this a secret, you'll have to choose carefully which type of narrator you use; readers will feel cheated if you have a close narrator who knows everything the hero thinks but "hides" this plan.
You'll need to provide some credible reason for the villain to accept the change of heart.
Means to an End
The hero has realized something is at stake which is far more important than the current conflict. The hero teams up with the villain to deal with it---perhaps sincerely, or perhaps with the intention of disposing of the villain along the way.
You will have to tie the villain's plans or resources into the larger issue somehow, and readers must believe that the players and their decisions are authentic.
A Number of Choices
Villain is Not Truly Evil
In spite of our initial impression, the villain is either: doing something good, completely misunderstood, or falsely portrayed to the protagonist.
Even if he is planning something and upsetting some people, it may not end up hurting anyone (not anyone who matters, at least).
The villain could even be trying to help. Imagine if I said I wanted to infect a bunch of people with cowpox (mild illness) first, and then inject them with smallpox (severe illness) afterward. That sounds horrible unless you know that I am proving a theory of vaccination which suggests they will become immune to smallpox after recovering from cowpox.
Hero Becomes Evil
This is usually a punch to the gut if the reader actually likes the hero. Maybe it is temporary. However, if this change is permanent then your entire story has to be built to accommodate it.
Betrayal
The hero is only pretending to change sides. By the end, the villain will be confronted in satisfying fashion.
If you intend to keep this a secret, you'll have to choose carefully which type of narrator you use; readers will feel cheated if you have a close narrator who knows everything the hero thinks but "hides" this plan.
You'll need to provide some credible reason for the villain to accept the change of heart.
Means to an End
The hero has realized something is at stake which is far more important than the current conflict. The hero teams up with the villain to deal with it---perhaps sincerely, or perhaps with the intention of disposing of the villain along the way.
You will have to tie the villain's plans or resources into the larger issue somehow, and readers must believe that the players and their decisions are authentic.
answered 5 hours ago
DoubleD
5244
5244
add a comment |
add a comment |
Thanks for contributing an answer to Writing Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fwriting.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f40616%2fwould-readers-feel-cheated-if-the-villain-is-successful-in-convincing-the-protag%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
2
Why would the villain trust the hero in the first place? The expectation from the point of view of the villain would be: Hero is bound and helpless -> hero agrees to support villain -> villain releases hero -> hero stabs villain and ruins villains plan. If you capture someone and they'd then claim to support you, I'd be very hesitant to believe them, no matter how good the speech actually was...
– Morfildur
14 hours ago
2
Could do the opposite way. Hero captures villain. Villain explains his plan and his reasons on the way to prison / execution. Hero changes sides.
– elPolloLoco
11 hours ago
3
Have you ever heard the tale of Darth Plagues the Wise? Suffice to say, it happens often and can be pretty fun to watch. The Star Wars reference was taken from the talk that flipped a character from good to evil and was the most loved film of that trilogy. This mostly had the force of the fact that the hero was a popular villain in the original trilogy. Star Trek DS9 had a fun story where the hero not only joined the Bond villain, but destroyed the world for him, much to the Villain's shock and audience laughs.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another episode of DS9 played this much more seriously and had the hero engaging in what would be a plot worthy of a villain in the series and admits to no remorse in his deeds... in fact, he finds himself agreeing the evil influence that the trade off (saving the galaxy vs. his own self-respect) was actually a pretty good deal.
– hszmv
10 hours ago
1
Another famous example, for which the link itself even is a major spoiler.
– jpmc26
3 hours ago