Measurable functions in a countable co-countable $sigma$-algebra












2












$begingroup$


I found a interesting problem that says: Let $(X,S)$ be a measurable space where $X=mathbb R$ and $S$ is the countable co-countable $sigma$-algebra in $mathbb R$, i.e. $S={Asubsetmathbb R: A lor mathbb R-A is finite or countable}$. So the point is to describe the S-measurable functions $ f:Xto Bbb R^*$, where $Bbb R^*$ are the extended real numbers.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Is codomain $mathbb R^*$ equipped with the Borel $sigma$-algebra?
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:04










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, it's the Borel $sigma$-algebra for $Bbb R^*$
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:06










  • $begingroup$
    I'm trying to see how this functions should be analyzing the generator class $B_1 ={Asubset Bbb R^* : A=(a,infty )}$. First, I'm trying to discard all the continuos functions, but I'm a little stuck. Assuming $f$ is continuos we get that: $$forall Ain B_1, f^{-1}(A) is open, so f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable and, thus, f^{-1}(A)notin S $$ And so it's only left to prove that also $$Bbb R - f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable$$ But I got stuck here since the only thing I know is that $Bbb R - f^{-1}(A)$ is closed.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:52


















2












$begingroup$


I found a interesting problem that says: Let $(X,S)$ be a measurable space where $X=mathbb R$ and $S$ is the countable co-countable $sigma$-algebra in $mathbb R$, i.e. $S={Asubsetmathbb R: A lor mathbb R-A is finite or countable}$. So the point is to describe the S-measurable functions $ f:Xto Bbb R^*$, where $Bbb R^*$ are the extended real numbers.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Is codomain $mathbb R^*$ equipped with the Borel $sigma$-algebra?
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:04










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, it's the Borel $sigma$-algebra for $Bbb R^*$
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:06










  • $begingroup$
    I'm trying to see how this functions should be analyzing the generator class $B_1 ={Asubset Bbb R^* : A=(a,infty )}$. First, I'm trying to discard all the continuos functions, but I'm a little stuck. Assuming $f$ is continuos we get that: $$forall Ain B_1, f^{-1}(A) is open, so f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable and, thus, f^{-1}(A)notin S $$ And so it's only left to prove that also $$Bbb R - f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable$$ But I got stuck here since the only thing I know is that $Bbb R - f^{-1}(A)$ is closed.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:52
















2












2








2


3



$begingroup$


I found a interesting problem that says: Let $(X,S)$ be a measurable space where $X=mathbb R$ and $S$ is the countable co-countable $sigma$-algebra in $mathbb R$, i.e. $S={Asubsetmathbb R: A lor mathbb R-A is finite or countable}$. So the point is to describe the S-measurable functions $ f:Xto Bbb R^*$, where $Bbb R^*$ are the extended real numbers.










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I found a interesting problem that says: Let $(X,S)$ be a measurable space where $X=mathbb R$ and $S$ is the countable co-countable $sigma$-algebra in $mathbb R$, i.e. $S={Asubsetmathbb R: A lor mathbb R-A is finite or countable}$. So the point is to describe the S-measurable functions $ f:Xto Bbb R^*$, where $Bbb R^*$ are the extended real numbers.







measure-theory






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Oct 13 '15 at 18:00









ArnulfArnulf

575312




575312












  • $begingroup$
    Is codomain $mathbb R^*$ equipped with the Borel $sigma$-algebra?
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:04










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, it's the Borel $sigma$-algebra for $Bbb R^*$
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:06










  • $begingroup$
    I'm trying to see how this functions should be analyzing the generator class $B_1 ={Asubset Bbb R^* : A=(a,infty )}$. First, I'm trying to discard all the continuos functions, but I'm a little stuck. Assuming $f$ is continuos we get that: $$forall Ain B_1, f^{-1}(A) is open, so f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable and, thus, f^{-1}(A)notin S $$ And so it's only left to prove that also $$Bbb R - f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable$$ But I got stuck here since the only thing I know is that $Bbb R - f^{-1}(A)$ is closed.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:52




















  • $begingroup$
    Is codomain $mathbb R^*$ equipped with the Borel $sigma$-algebra?
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:04










  • $begingroup$
    Yes, it's the Borel $sigma$-algebra for $Bbb R^*$
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:06










  • $begingroup$
    I'm trying to see how this functions should be analyzing the generator class $B_1 ={Asubset Bbb R^* : A=(a,infty )}$. First, I'm trying to discard all the continuos functions, but I'm a little stuck. Assuming $f$ is continuos we get that: $$forall Ain B_1, f^{-1}(A) is open, so f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable and, thus, f^{-1}(A)notin S $$ And so it's only left to prove that also $$Bbb R - f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable$$ But I got stuck here since the only thing I know is that $Bbb R - f^{-1}(A)$ is closed.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 13 '15 at 18:52


















$begingroup$
Is codomain $mathbb R^*$ equipped with the Borel $sigma$-algebra?
$endgroup$
– drhab
Oct 13 '15 at 18:04




$begingroup$
Is codomain $mathbb R^*$ equipped with the Borel $sigma$-algebra?
$endgroup$
– drhab
Oct 13 '15 at 18:04












$begingroup$
Yes, it's the Borel $sigma$-algebra for $Bbb R^*$
$endgroup$
– Arnulf
Oct 13 '15 at 18:06




$begingroup$
Yes, it's the Borel $sigma$-algebra for $Bbb R^*$
$endgroup$
– Arnulf
Oct 13 '15 at 18:06












$begingroup$
I'm trying to see how this functions should be analyzing the generator class $B_1 ={Asubset Bbb R^* : A=(a,infty )}$. First, I'm trying to discard all the continuos functions, but I'm a little stuck. Assuming $f$ is continuos we get that: $$forall Ain B_1, f^{-1}(A) is open, so f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable and, thus, f^{-1}(A)notin S $$ And so it's only left to prove that also $$Bbb R - f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable$$ But I got stuck here since the only thing I know is that $Bbb R - f^{-1}(A)$ is closed.
$endgroup$
– Arnulf
Oct 13 '15 at 18:52






$begingroup$
I'm trying to see how this functions should be analyzing the generator class $B_1 ={Asubset Bbb R^* : A=(a,infty )}$. First, I'm trying to discard all the continuos functions, but I'm a little stuck. Assuming $f$ is continuos we get that: $$forall Ain B_1, f^{-1}(A) is open, so f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable and, thus, f^{-1}(A)notin S $$ And so it's only left to prove that also $$Bbb R - f^{-1}(A) is not finite neither countable$$ But I got stuck here since the only thing I know is that $Bbb R - f^{-1}(A)$ is closed.
$endgroup$
– Arnulf
Oct 13 '15 at 18:52












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

Let $I$ denote the image of $f$. If $I$ is not countable then some $rinmathbb R$ will exist such that $Icap(-infty,r)$ and $Icap[r,infty)$ are both not countable. Then the disjoint preimages of these sets cannot be countable, hence $f$ cannot be meausurable.



We conclude that $I$ must be countable. Then for $xin I$ fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ form a countable partition of $X=mathbb R$, so at least one of these fibres is not countable. If for distinct $x,yin I$ the fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ and $f^{-1}({y})$ are both uncountable then we can choose some $r$ in between $x$ and $y$ such that the disjoint preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ are both uncountable, and again $f$ cannot be measurable.



We conclude that there is exactly one $xin I$ with an uncountable fibre. The complement of this fibre is covered by other fibers. Each of them is a countable set and also the number of these fibers is countable. Conclusion: the complement of the mentioned uncountable fiber is countable, wich means that the uncountable fiber is cocountable.



Our final conclusion: $$ftext{ is measurable if and only if }ftext{ is constant on a cocountable set}$$ In that case the preimages of $(-infty,r)$ with $r$ ranging over $mathbb R$ will all be cocountable or countable.





edit (concerning question of @dan in a comment on this answer)



Let it be that $I$ is an uncountable subset of $mathbb R$.



Let $A:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(-infty,xright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $
and let $B:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(x,inftyright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $.



Note that the fact that $I$ is uncountable implies that $Acap B=varnothing$.



It is our aim to prove that $Acup Bneqmathbb{R}$.



So we assume that $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ and from here it is enough
to find a contradiction.



At first hand for the shape of $A$ we see three possibilities: $A=varnothing$,
$A=left(-infty,sright]$ for some $sinmathbb{R}$ or $A=mathbb{R}$.



But if $A=mathbb{R}$ then $I=bigcup_{n=1}^{infty}left(Icapleft(-infty,nright)right)$
is countable as well, so the third possibility falls off.



Then similarly for the shape of $B$ we find two possibilities: $B=varnothing$
or $B=left[i,inftyright)$ for some $iinmathbb{R}$.



Then based on $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ we find that also the possibilities
$A=varnothing$ and $B=varnothing$ fall off.



So $mathbb{R}=Acup B=left(-infty,sright]cupleft[i,inftyright)$
implying that $ileq s$.



But then $Acap B=left[i,sright]neqvarnothing$ and a contradiction
is found.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 14 '15 at 2:53










  • $begingroup$
    The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 14 '15 at 6:59












  • $begingroup$
    The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Gustavo
    Jan 14 '17 at 22:55










  • $begingroup$
    @drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
    $endgroup$
    – dan
    Dec 2 '18 at 13:32










  • $begingroup$
    @dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:01











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f1478542%2fmeasurable-functions-in-a-countable-co-countable-sigma-algebra%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4












$begingroup$

Let $I$ denote the image of $f$. If $I$ is not countable then some $rinmathbb R$ will exist such that $Icap(-infty,r)$ and $Icap[r,infty)$ are both not countable. Then the disjoint preimages of these sets cannot be countable, hence $f$ cannot be meausurable.



We conclude that $I$ must be countable. Then for $xin I$ fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ form a countable partition of $X=mathbb R$, so at least one of these fibres is not countable. If for distinct $x,yin I$ the fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ and $f^{-1}({y})$ are both uncountable then we can choose some $r$ in between $x$ and $y$ such that the disjoint preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ are both uncountable, and again $f$ cannot be measurable.



We conclude that there is exactly one $xin I$ with an uncountable fibre. The complement of this fibre is covered by other fibers. Each of them is a countable set and also the number of these fibers is countable. Conclusion: the complement of the mentioned uncountable fiber is countable, wich means that the uncountable fiber is cocountable.



Our final conclusion: $$ftext{ is measurable if and only if }ftext{ is constant on a cocountable set}$$ In that case the preimages of $(-infty,r)$ with $r$ ranging over $mathbb R$ will all be cocountable or countable.





edit (concerning question of @dan in a comment on this answer)



Let it be that $I$ is an uncountable subset of $mathbb R$.



Let $A:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(-infty,xright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $
and let $B:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(x,inftyright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $.



Note that the fact that $I$ is uncountable implies that $Acap B=varnothing$.



It is our aim to prove that $Acup Bneqmathbb{R}$.



So we assume that $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ and from here it is enough
to find a contradiction.



At first hand for the shape of $A$ we see three possibilities: $A=varnothing$,
$A=left(-infty,sright]$ for some $sinmathbb{R}$ or $A=mathbb{R}$.



But if $A=mathbb{R}$ then $I=bigcup_{n=1}^{infty}left(Icapleft(-infty,nright)right)$
is countable as well, so the third possibility falls off.



Then similarly for the shape of $B$ we find two possibilities: $B=varnothing$
or $B=left[i,inftyright)$ for some $iinmathbb{R}$.



Then based on $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ we find that also the possibilities
$A=varnothing$ and $B=varnothing$ fall off.



So $mathbb{R}=Acup B=left(-infty,sright]cupleft[i,inftyright)$
implying that $ileq s$.



But then $Acap B=left[i,sright]neqvarnothing$ and a contradiction
is found.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 14 '15 at 2:53










  • $begingroup$
    The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 14 '15 at 6:59












  • $begingroup$
    The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Gustavo
    Jan 14 '17 at 22:55










  • $begingroup$
    @drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
    $endgroup$
    – dan
    Dec 2 '18 at 13:32










  • $begingroup$
    @dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:01
















4












$begingroup$

Let $I$ denote the image of $f$. If $I$ is not countable then some $rinmathbb R$ will exist such that $Icap(-infty,r)$ and $Icap[r,infty)$ are both not countable. Then the disjoint preimages of these sets cannot be countable, hence $f$ cannot be meausurable.



We conclude that $I$ must be countable. Then for $xin I$ fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ form a countable partition of $X=mathbb R$, so at least one of these fibres is not countable. If for distinct $x,yin I$ the fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ and $f^{-1}({y})$ are both uncountable then we can choose some $r$ in between $x$ and $y$ such that the disjoint preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ are both uncountable, and again $f$ cannot be measurable.



We conclude that there is exactly one $xin I$ with an uncountable fibre. The complement of this fibre is covered by other fibers. Each of them is a countable set and also the number of these fibers is countable. Conclusion: the complement of the mentioned uncountable fiber is countable, wich means that the uncountable fiber is cocountable.



Our final conclusion: $$ftext{ is measurable if and only if }ftext{ is constant on a cocountable set}$$ In that case the preimages of $(-infty,r)$ with $r$ ranging over $mathbb R$ will all be cocountable or countable.





edit (concerning question of @dan in a comment on this answer)



Let it be that $I$ is an uncountable subset of $mathbb R$.



Let $A:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(-infty,xright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $
and let $B:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(x,inftyright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $.



Note that the fact that $I$ is uncountable implies that $Acap B=varnothing$.



It is our aim to prove that $Acup Bneqmathbb{R}$.



So we assume that $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ and from here it is enough
to find a contradiction.



At first hand for the shape of $A$ we see three possibilities: $A=varnothing$,
$A=left(-infty,sright]$ for some $sinmathbb{R}$ or $A=mathbb{R}$.



But if $A=mathbb{R}$ then $I=bigcup_{n=1}^{infty}left(Icapleft(-infty,nright)right)$
is countable as well, so the third possibility falls off.



Then similarly for the shape of $B$ we find two possibilities: $B=varnothing$
or $B=left[i,inftyright)$ for some $iinmathbb{R}$.



Then based on $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ we find that also the possibilities
$A=varnothing$ and $B=varnothing$ fall off.



So $mathbb{R}=Acup B=left(-infty,sright]cupleft[i,inftyright)$
implying that $ileq s$.



But then $Acap B=left[i,sright]neqvarnothing$ and a contradiction
is found.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 14 '15 at 2:53










  • $begingroup$
    The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 14 '15 at 6:59












  • $begingroup$
    The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Gustavo
    Jan 14 '17 at 22:55










  • $begingroup$
    @drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
    $endgroup$
    – dan
    Dec 2 '18 at 13:32










  • $begingroup$
    @dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:01














4












4








4





$begingroup$

Let $I$ denote the image of $f$. If $I$ is not countable then some $rinmathbb R$ will exist such that $Icap(-infty,r)$ and $Icap[r,infty)$ are both not countable. Then the disjoint preimages of these sets cannot be countable, hence $f$ cannot be meausurable.



We conclude that $I$ must be countable. Then for $xin I$ fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ form a countable partition of $X=mathbb R$, so at least one of these fibres is not countable. If for distinct $x,yin I$ the fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ and $f^{-1}({y})$ are both uncountable then we can choose some $r$ in between $x$ and $y$ such that the disjoint preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ are both uncountable, and again $f$ cannot be measurable.



We conclude that there is exactly one $xin I$ with an uncountable fibre. The complement of this fibre is covered by other fibers. Each of them is a countable set and also the number of these fibers is countable. Conclusion: the complement of the mentioned uncountable fiber is countable, wich means that the uncountable fiber is cocountable.



Our final conclusion: $$ftext{ is measurable if and only if }ftext{ is constant on a cocountable set}$$ In that case the preimages of $(-infty,r)$ with $r$ ranging over $mathbb R$ will all be cocountable or countable.





edit (concerning question of @dan in a comment on this answer)



Let it be that $I$ is an uncountable subset of $mathbb R$.



Let $A:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(-infty,xright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $
and let $B:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(x,inftyright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $.



Note that the fact that $I$ is uncountable implies that $Acap B=varnothing$.



It is our aim to prove that $Acup Bneqmathbb{R}$.



So we assume that $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ and from here it is enough
to find a contradiction.



At first hand for the shape of $A$ we see three possibilities: $A=varnothing$,
$A=left(-infty,sright]$ for some $sinmathbb{R}$ or $A=mathbb{R}$.



But if $A=mathbb{R}$ then $I=bigcup_{n=1}^{infty}left(Icapleft(-infty,nright)right)$
is countable as well, so the third possibility falls off.



Then similarly for the shape of $B$ we find two possibilities: $B=varnothing$
or $B=left[i,inftyright)$ for some $iinmathbb{R}$.



Then based on $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ we find that also the possibilities
$A=varnothing$ and $B=varnothing$ fall off.



So $mathbb{R}=Acup B=left(-infty,sright]cupleft[i,inftyright)$
implying that $ileq s$.



But then $Acap B=left[i,sright]neqvarnothing$ and a contradiction
is found.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



Let $I$ denote the image of $f$. If $I$ is not countable then some $rinmathbb R$ will exist such that $Icap(-infty,r)$ and $Icap[r,infty)$ are both not countable. Then the disjoint preimages of these sets cannot be countable, hence $f$ cannot be meausurable.



We conclude that $I$ must be countable. Then for $xin I$ fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ form a countable partition of $X=mathbb R$, so at least one of these fibres is not countable. If for distinct $x,yin I$ the fibres $f^{-1}({x})$ and $f^{-1}({y})$ are both uncountable then we can choose some $r$ in between $x$ and $y$ such that the disjoint preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ are both uncountable, and again $f$ cannot be measurable.



We conclude that there is exactly one $xin I$ with an uncountable fibre. The complement of this fibre is covered by other fibers. Each of them is a countable set and also the number of these fibers is countable. Conclusion: the complement of the mentioned uncountable fiber is countable, wich means that the uncountable fiber is cocountable.



Our final conclusion: $$ftext{ is measurable if and only if }ftext{ is constant on a cocountable set}$$ In that case the preimages of $(-infty,r)$ with $r$ ranging over $mathbb R$ will all be cocountable or countable.





edit (concerning question of @dan in a comment on this answer)



Let it be that $I$ is an uncountable subset of $mathbb R$.



Let $A:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(-infty,xright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $
and let $B:=left{ xinmathbb{R}midleft(x,inftyright)cap Itext{ is countable}right} $.



Note that the fact that $I$ is uncountable implies that $Acap B=varnothing$.



It is our aim to prove that $Acup Bneqmathbb{R}$.



So we assume that $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ and from here it is enough
to find a contradiction.



At first hand for the shape of $A$ we see three possibilities: $A=varnothing$,
$A=left(-infty,sright]$ for some $sinmathbb{R}$ or $A=mathbb{R}$.



But if $A=mathbb{R}$ then $I=bigcup_{n=1}^{infty}left(Icapleft(-infty,nright)right)$
is countable as well, so the third possibility falls off.



Then similarly for the shape of $B$ we find two possibilities: $B=varnothing$
or $B=left[i,inftyright)$ for some $iinmathbb{R}$.



Then based on $Acup B=mathbb{R}$ we find that also the possibilities
$A=varnothing$ and $B=varnothing$ fall off.



So $mathbb{R}=Acup B=left(-infty,sright]cupleft[i,inftyright)$
implying that $ileq s$.



But then $Acap B=left[i,sright]neqvarnothing$ and a contradiction
is found.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Dec 3 '18 at 10:10

























answered Oct 13 '15 at 18:55









drhabdrhab

99.1k544130




99.1k544130












  • $begingroup$
    In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 14 '15 at 2:53










  • $begingroup$
    The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 14 '15 at 6:59












  • $begingroup$
    The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Gustavo
    Jan 14 '17 at 22:55










  • $begingroup$
    @drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
    $endgroup$
    – dan
    Dec 2 '18 at 13:32










  • $begingroup$
    @dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:01


















  • $begingroup$
    In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – Arnulf
    Oct 14 '15 at 2:53










  • $begingroup$
    The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Oct 14 '15 at 6:59












  • $begingroup$
    The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
    $endgroup$
    – Gustavo
    Jan 14 '17 at 22:55










  • $begingroup$
    @drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
    $endgroup$
    – dan
    Dec 2 '18 at 13:32










  • $begingroup$
    @dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
    $endgroup$
    – drhab
    Dec 2 '18 at 20:01
















$begingroup$
In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
$endgroup$
– Arnulf
Oct 14 '15 at 2:53




$begingroup$
In the second part, where you suppose theres another not countable fiber, I don't get why choose an r ($in Bbb R$) and also I don't get it why f cannot be measurable.
$endgroup$
– Arnulf
Oct 14 '15 at 2:53












$begingroup$
The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
$endgroup$
– drhab
Oct 14 '15 at 6:59






$begingroup$
The preimages of $(-infty,r)$ and $(r,infty)$ both contain an uncountable fiber, hence are both uncountable. Also they are disjoint. Consequently also their comlements are uncountable, wich means that neither of them is cocountable. So these preimages are not measurable.
$endgroup$
– drhab
Oct 14 '15 at 6:59














$begingroup$
The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
$endgroup$
– Gustavo
Jan 14 '17 at 22:55




$begingroup$
The same conclusion holds for measurable functions $ f: X to Y , $, where $X$ is an arbitrary uncountable set with the same $sigma$-algebra of countable and co-countable sets and $Y$ is a Hausdorff topological space with some $sigma$-algebra that contains the Borel sets.
$endgroup$
– Gustavo
Jan 14 '17 at 22:55












$begingroup$
@drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– dan
Dec 2 '18 at 13:32




$begingroup$
@drhab May you please explain why there is $rin mathbb{R}$ such that $I cap (-infty , r)$ and $I cap [r,infty)$ are both uncountable? Thanks!!
$endgroup$
– dan
Dec 2 '18 at 13:32












$begingroup$
@dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
$endgroup$
– drhab
Dec 2 '18 at 20:01




$begingroup$
@dan More or less I said that on intuition. It appeared that a proof (or at least my proof) of it is too much for a comment. That's why I edited the answer to add a proof of the statement. I is quite well possible that a more elegant proof can be given, but I am content that I could find one.
$endgroup$
– drhab
Dec 2 '18 at 20:01


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f1478542%2fmeasurable-functions-in-a-countable-co-countable-sigma-algebra%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Quarter-circle Tiles

build a pushdown automaton that recognizes the reverse language of a given pushdown automaton?

Mont Emei