Are Transitions in a Hydrogen Atom Unique
$begingroup$
So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.
The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)
My Thoughts;
Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.
Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.
$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$
Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.
Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.
physics diophantine-equations integers
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.
The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)
My Thoughts;
Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.
Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.
$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$
Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.
Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.
physics diophantine-equations integers
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13
4
$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.
The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)
My Thoughts;
Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.
Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.
$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$
Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.
Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.
physics diophantine-equations integers
$endgroup$
So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.
The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)
My Thoughts;
Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.
Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.
$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$
Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.
Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.
physics diophantine-equations integers
physics diophantine-equations integers
edited Dec 14 '18 at 0:47
OmnipotentEntity
464318
464318
asked Dec 13 '18 at 23:24
PhysicsABCPhysicsABC
634
634
4
$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13
4
$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25
add a comment |
4
$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13
4
$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25
4
4
$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13
$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13
4
4
$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25
$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Above equation shown below:
$m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$
Above is equivalent to:
$ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
= (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$
Or
$(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)
The above can be replaced by:
$(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)
For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)
Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)
But equation (B) has the condition:
$c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)
Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wrote a little Python program to find them:
#!/usr/bin/env python3
max_n = 200
for n in range(1, max_n):
for m in range(n+1, max_n):
for p in range(1, n):
for q in range(p+1, m):
if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")
Definitely not unique!
Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7
Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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$begingroup$
Above equation shown below:
$m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$
Above is equivalent to:
$ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
= (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$
Or
$(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)
The above can be replaced by:
$(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)
For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)
Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)
But equation (B) has the condition:
$c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)
Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Above equation shown below:
$m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$
Above is equivalent to:
$ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
= (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$
Or
$(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)
The above can be replaced by:
$(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)
For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)
Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)
But equation (B) has the condition:
$c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)
Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Above equation shown below:
$m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$
Above is equivalent to:
$ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
= (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$
Or
$(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)
The above can be replaced by:
$(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)
For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)
Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)
But equation (B) has the condition:
$c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)
Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)
$endgroup$
Above equation shown below:
$m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$
Above is equivalent to:
$ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
= (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$
Or
$(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)
The above can be replaced by:
$(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)
For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)
Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)
But equation (B) has the condition:
$c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)
Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)
answered Dec 14 '18 at 10:43
SamSam
261
261
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wrote a little Python program to find them:
#!/usr/bin/env python3
max_n = 200
for n in range(1, max_n):
for m in range(n+1, max_n):
for p in range(1, n):
for q in range(p+1, m):
if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")
Definitely not unique!
Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7
Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wrote a little Python program to find them:
#!/usr/bin/env python3
max_n = 200
for n in range(1, max_n):
for m in range(n+1, max_n):
for p in range(1, n):
for q in range(p+1, m):
if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")
Definitely not unique!
Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7
Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wrote a little Python program to find them:
#!/usr/bin/env python3
max_n = 200
for n in range(1, max_n):
for m in range(n+1, max_n):
for p in range(1, n):
for q in range(p+1, m):
if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")
Definitely not unique!
Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7
Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8
$endgroup$
I wrote a little Python program to find them:
#!/usr/bin/env python3
max_n = 200
for n in range(1, max_n):
for m in range(n+1, max_n):
for p in range(1, n):
for q in range(p+1, m):
if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")
Definitely not unique!
Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7
Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9
Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8
answered Dec 14 '18 at 0:42
user14717user14717
3,8381120
3,8381120
add a comment |
add a comment |
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One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
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– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13
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Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
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– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25