Are Transitions in a Hydrogen Atom Unique












12












$begingroup$


So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.



The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)



My Thoughts;



Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.



Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.



$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$



Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.



Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:13








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:25
















12












$begingroup$


So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.



The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)



My Thoughts;



Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.



Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.



$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$



Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.



Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:13








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:25














12












12








12


2



$begingroup$


So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.



The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)



My Thoughts;



Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.



Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.



$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$



Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.



Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




So there was a question on a past exam paper of a test I have recently taken and despite the test being over I feel the need to know the answer. I am a physics major and the test was a generic test on problems similar to the GRE in the States but with more involved questions.



The question asked;
Are there any two transitions in a hydrogen atom which will emit the same wavelength of electromagnetic radiation. (Ignore any degeneracy in l and s etc.)



My Thoughts;



Now I know that for hydrogen energy levels;
$$ E_n = frac{c}{n^2} $$
Where c is some constant and n is the principle quantum number.



Thus the energy for a transition from level $n$ to level $m$ $(n>m)$ is given by
$$ E_{n-m} = cbigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg)$$
So the question may be reduced to finding any integer solutions $(m, n, p, q in N)$ to
$$ bigg(frac{1}{n^2}-frac{1}{m^2}bigg) = bigg(frac{1}{p^2}-frac{1}{q^2}bigg) $$
My intuition for the answer has oscillated. I am currently of the opinion it's not possible but could be wrong. I have attempted this a few ways. One way was to multiply across by $n^2m^2p^2q^2$ and gather on one side.



$$ m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2 $$



Then I tried to prove that this couldn't be equal to 0. As it was always positive or negative. One I also notes was that if we say for the trasition to be uniques. $ n > p > m > n $. If this was not true then one trasition would be greater than the other. If this question can be solved a differnent way Id like to know but I'd also be interested in how to prove the above identity regardless.



Apologies if Ive missed something obvious.







physics diophantine-equations integers






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share|cite|improve this question













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edited Dec 14 '18 at 0:47









OmnipotentEntity

464318




464318










asked Dec 13 '18 at 23:24









PhysicsABCPhysicsABC

634




634








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:13








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:25














  • 4




    $begingroup$
    One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:13








  • 4




    $begingroup$
    Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
    $endgroup$
    – Winther
    Dec 14 '18 at 1:25








4




4




$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13






$begingroup$
One idea would be to try to find pairs on the form $frac{1}{n^2} - frac{1}{m^2} = frac{1}{m^2} - frac{1}{(nm)^2}$. This reduces to finding integer solutions to the Pell equation $2n^2 - m^2 = 1$ (and which shows that there are infinitely many non-unique transitions). The smallest solution is $(5,7)$.
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:13






4




4




$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25




$begingroup$
Based on this it's not that hard to derive a recursion that will generate infinitely many solutions. If we put $pmatrix{x_k\y_k} = pmatrix{3 & 4\ 2 & 3}pmatrix{x_{k-1}\ y_{k-1}}$ with $x_0 = 7$ and $y_0 = 5$ then $frac{1}{y_k^2} - frac{1}{x_k^2} = frac{1}{x_k^2} - frac{1}{(x_ky_k)^2}$. See e.g. math.stackexchange.com/questions/618355/…
$endgroup$
– Winther
Dec 14 '18 at 1:25










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

Above equation shown below:



$m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$



Above is equivalent to:



$ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
= (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$



Or



$(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)



The above can be replaced by:



$(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)



For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)



Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)



But equation (B) has the condition:



$c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)



Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    3












    $begingroup$

    I wrote a little Python program to find them:



    #!/usr/bin/env python3

    max_n = 200
    for n in range(1, max_n):
    for m in range(n+1, max_n):
    for p in range(1, n):
    for q in range(p+1, m):
    if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
    print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")


    Definitely not unique!



    Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9



    Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7



    Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14



    Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9



    Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$













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      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes








      2 Answers
      2






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      1












      $begingroup$

      Above equation shown below:



      $m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$



      Above is equivalent to:



      $ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
      = (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$



      Or



      $(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)



      The above can be replaced by:



      $(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)



      For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)



      Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)



      But equation (B) has the condition:



      $c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)



      Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        1












        $begingroup$

        Above equation shown below:



        $m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$



        Above is equivalent to:



        $ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
        = (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$



        Or



        $(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)



        The above can be replaced by:



        $(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)



        For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)



        Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)



        But equation (B) has the condition:



        $c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)



        Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          Above equation shown below:



          $m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$



          Above is equivalent to:



          $ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
          = (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$



          Or



          $(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)



          The above can be replaced by:



          $(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)



          For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)



          Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)



          But equation (B) has the condition:



          $c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)



          Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          Above equation shown below:



          $m^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 p^2 q^2 - n^2 m^2 q^2 + n^2 m^2 p^2=0$



          Above is equivalent to:



          $ (m^2 p^2 q^2) +(n^2 m^2 p^2)
          = (n^2 p^2 q^2) + (n^2 m^2 q^2)$



          Or



          $(mpq)^2+(nmp)^2=(npq)^2+(nmq)^2$ -------(A)



          The above can be replaced by:



          $(ac+bd)^2+(ad-bc)^2=(ac-bd)^2+(ad+bc)^2$ -------(B)



          For equation (A) solution given by (User 14717) is (m,n,p,q)=(90,6,5,9)



          Hence the solution for equation (B) is: (a,b,c,d)= (2,1,1080,1890)



          But equation (B) has the condition:



          $c^2(12a^2+b^2)=d^2(a^2+12b^2)$ -------(C)



          Hence any new numerical solution to equation (C) will give new solution to Equation (A)







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Dec 14 '18 at 10:43









          SamSam

          261




          261























              3












              $begingroup$

              I wrote a little Python program to find them:



              #!/usr/bin/env python3

              max_n = 200
              for n in range(1, max_n):
              for m in range(n+1, max_n):
              for p in range(1, n):
              for q in range(p+1, m):
              if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
              print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")


              Definitely not unique!



              Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9



              Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7



              Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14



              Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9



              Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                3












                $begingroup$

                I wrote a little Python program to find them:



                #!/usr/bin/env python3

                max_n = 200
                for n in range(1, max_n):
                for m in range(n+1, max_n):
                for p in range(1, n):
                for q in range(p+1, m):
                if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
                print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")


                Definitely not unique!



                Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9



                Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7



                Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14



                Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9



                Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  3












                  3








                  3





                  $begingroup$

                  I wrote a little Python program to find them:



                  #!/usr/bin/env python3

                  max_n = 200
                  for n in range(1, max_n):
                  for m in range(n+1, max_n):
                  for p in range(1, n):
                  for q in range(p+1, m):
                  if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
                  print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")


                  Definitely not unique!



                  Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9



                  Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7



                  Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14



                  Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9



                  Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  I wrote a little Python program to find them:



                  #!/usr/bin/env python3

                  max_n = 200
                  for n in range(1, max_n):
                  for m in range(n+1, max_n):
                  for p in range(1, n):
                  for q in range(p+1, m):
                  if m*m*p*p*q*q +n*n*m*m*p*p == n*n*p*p*q*q + n*n*m*m*q*q:
                  print(f"Coincident spectral line for m={m}, n={n}, p={p}, q={q}")


                  Definitely not unique!



                  Coincident spectral line for m=90, n=6, p=5, q=9



                  Coincident spectral line for m=35, n=7, p=5, q=7



                  Coincident spectral line for m=56, n=8, p=7, q=14



                  Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=8, p=6, q=9



                  Coincident spectral line for m=72, n=9, p=6, q=8







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                  answered Dec 14 '18 at 0:42









                  user14717user14717

                  3,8381120




                  3,8381120






























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