Minimum distance between polynomials in ring-LWE











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Let $R_q=mathbb{Z}_q[x]/langle f(x)rangle$ where $f(x)=x^n+1$, as in the ring-LWE problem.



Let $a(x)$ be chosen uniformly at random from $R_q$.



Question: Is there any theorem that lower bounds the distance between any two polynomials of the form $a(x)s_1(s)$ and $a(x)s_2(x)$?



In other words, what is the value of $d$ such that $$||a(x)s_1(x)-a(x)s_2(x)||geq d$$ except with negligible probability, for any two polynomials $s_1(x),s_2(x)in R_q$ and where $||cdot||$ is the usual $L_2$ norm?










share|improve this question






















  • Hello. It is a good question, but the $L_2$ norm is defined over vectors and it is not clear how you are embedding the polynomials in a vector space. Are you just representing the polynomials as vectors with their coefficients? (So, for instance, $2x^3 -1$ becomes the vector $(2, 0, 0, -1)$).
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago










  • Yes, I am thinking of the canonical embedding
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, the canonical embedding is the one that uses isomorphisms to embed the polynomials. The one I've described is the coefficient embedding...
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago












  • Sorry. I mean the coefficient embedding then
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • How do you define "negligible probability" in this case?
    – kodlu
    2 days ago















up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1












Let $R_q=mathbb{Z}_q[x]/langle f(x)rangle$ where $f(x)=x^n+1$, as in the ring-LWE problem.



Let $a(x)$ be chosen uniformly at random from $R_q$.



Question: Is there any theorem that lower bounds the distance between any two polynomials of the form $a(x)s_1(s)$ and $a(x)s_2(x)$?



In other words, what is the value of $d$ such that $$||a(x)s_1(x)-a(x)s_2(x)||geq d$$ except with negligible probability, for any two polynomials $s_1(x),s_2(x)in R_q$ and where $||cdot||$ is the usual $L_2$ norm?










share|improve this question






















  • Hello. It is a good question, but the $L_2$ norm is defined over vectors and it is not clear how you are embedding the polynomials in a vector space. Are you just representing the polynomials as vectors with their coefficients? (So, for instance, $2x^3 -1$ becomes the vector $(2, 0, 0, -1)$).
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago










  • Yes, I am thinking of the canonical embedding
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, the canonical embedding is the one that uses isomorphisms to embed the polynomials. The one I've described is the coefficient embedding...
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago












  • Sorry. I mean the coefficient embedding then
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • How do you define "negligible probability" in this case?
    – kodlu
    2 days ago













up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
4
down vote

favorite
1






1





Let $R_q=mathbb{Z}_q[x]/langle f(x)rangle$ where $f(x)=x^n+1$, as in the ring-LWE problem.



Let $a(x)$ be chosen uniformly at random from $R_q$.



Question: Is there any theorem that lower bounds the distance between any two polynomials of the form $a(x)s_1(s)$ and $a(x)s_2(x)$?



In other words, what is the value of $d$ such that $$||a(x)s_1(x)-a(x)s_2(x)||geq d$$ except with negligible probability, for any two polynomials $s_1(x),s_2(x)in R_q$ and where $||cdot||$ is the usual $L_2$ norm?










share|improve this question













Let $R_q=mathbb{Z}_q[x]/langle f(x)rangle$ where $f(x)=x^n+1$, as in the ring-LWE problem.



Let $a(x)$ be chosen uniformly at random from $R_q$.



Question: Is there any theorem that lower bounds the distance between any two polynomials of the form $a(x)s_1(s)$ and $a(x)s_2(x)$?



In other words, what is the value of $d$ such that $$||a(x)s_1(x)-a(x)s_2(x)||geq d$$ except with negligible probability, for any two polynomials $s_1(x),s_2(x)in R_q$ and where $||cdot||$ is the usual $L_2$ norm?







lattice-crypto lwe ring-lwe






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 2 days ago









P.B.

1376




1376












  • Hello. It is a good question, but the $L_2$ norm is defined over vectors and it is not clear how you are embedding the polynomials in a vector space. Are you just representing the polynomials as vectors with their coefficients? (So, for instance, $2x^3 -1$ becomes the vector $(2, 0, 0, -1)$).
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago










  • Yes, I am thinking of the canonical embedding
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, the canonical embedding is the one that uses isomorphisms to embed the polynomials. The one I've described is the coefficient embedding...
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago












  • Sorry. I mean the coefficient embedding then
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • How do you define "negligible probability" in this case?
    – kodlu
    2 days ago


















  • Hello. It is a good question, but the $L_2$ norm is defined over vectors and it is not clear how you are embedding the polynomials in a vector space. Are you just representing the polynomials as vectors with their coefficients? (So, for instance, $2x^3 -1$ becomes the vector $(2, 0, 0, -1)$).
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago










  • Yes, I am thinking of the canonical embedding
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, the canonical embedding is the one that uses isomorphisms to embed the polynomials. The one I've described is the coefficient embedding...
    – Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
    2 days ago












  • Sorry. I mean the coefficient embedding then
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • How do you define "negligible probability" in this case?
    – kodlu
    2 days ago
















Hello. It is a good question, but the $L_2$ norm is defined over vectors and it is not clear how you are embedding the polynomials in a vector space. Are you just representing the polynomials as vectors with their coefficients? (So, for instance, $2x^3 -1$ becomes the vector $(2, 0, 0, -1)$).
– Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
2 days ago




Hello. It is a good question, but the $L_2$ norm is defined over vectors and it is not clear how you are embedding the polynomials in a vector space. Are you just representing the polynomials as vectors with their coefficients? (So, for instance, $2x^3 -1$ becomes the vector $(2, 0, 0, -1)$).
– Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
2 days ago












Yes, I am thinking of the canonical embedding
– P.B.
2 days ago




Yes, I am thinking of the canonical embedding
– P.B.
2 days ago












Well, the canonical embedding is the one that uses isomorphisms to embed the polynomials. The one I've described is the coefficient embedding...
– Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
2 days ago






Well, the canonical embedding is the one that uses isomorphisms to embed the polynomials. The one I've described is the coefficient embedding...
– Hilder Vítor Lima Pereira
2 days ago














Sorry. I mean the coefficient embedding then
– P.B.
2 days ago




Sorry. I mean the coefficient embedding then
– P.B.
2 days ago












How do you define "negligible probability" in this case?
– kodlu
2 days ago




How do you define "negligible probability" in this case?
– kodlu
2 days ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
5
down vote



accepted










I'm assuming $n$ is a power of $2$ and that $q$ is an odd prime larger than $n$. I'm discarding the trivial case $s_1 = s_2$.



If you consider everything $mod q$, then it is most likely over the choice of $a$ that there exists $s_1 neq s_2$ such that $|a s_1 - a s_2| = sqrt{n}$. Indeed, $a$ is invertible in $R_q$ with probability about $1 - n/q$. Take $s_2 = s_1 - a^{-1}$, then you have $a s_1 - a s_2 = 1 mod q$ and the embedding norm of $1$ is $sqrt{n}$.



If you do not consider this $mod q$, i.e. you work in $R=mathbb Z[x]/⟨f(x)⟩$, then you are precisely asking for the minimal distance $lambda_1(mathfrak I)$ of the ideal lattice $mathfrak I$ generated by $a$. For such an ideal lattice, we can estimate rather precisely this minimal distance. A simple lower bound is
$lambda_1(mathfrak I) geq Delta_K^{1/2n} cdot N(a)^{1/n}$, where $N$ denotes the algebraic norm of $a$ (that is, the product of all its embeddings), and $Delta_K$ is the discriminant of field $K = mathbb Q(x)/(x^n+1)$. The reason is that the minimal vector $x$ must generate a subideal of $mathfrak I$, so $N(x) geq N(a)$, and $|x|^n geq Delta_K^{1/2} N(x)$. An upper bound is also given by Minkowski's theorem.






share|improve this answer























  • Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
    – P.B.
    yesterday










  • There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
    – P.B.
    yesterday











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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes








up vote
5
down vote



accepted










I'm assuming $n$ is a power of $2$ and that $q$ is an odd prime larger than $n$. I'm discarding the trivial case $s_1 = s_2$.



If you consider everything $mod q$, then it is most likely over the choice of $a$ that there exists $s_1 neq s_2$ such that $|a s_1 - a s_2| = sqrt{n}$. Indeed, $a$ is invertible in $R_q$ with probability about $1 - n/q$. Take $s_2 = s_1 - a^{-1}$, then you have $a s_1 - a s_2 = 1 mod q$ and the embedding norm of $1$ is $sqrt{n}$.



If you do not consider this $mod q$, i.e. you work in $R=mathbb Z[x]/⟨f(x)⟩$, then you are precisely asking for the minimal distance $lambda_1(mathfrak I)$ of the ideal lattice $mathfrak I$ generated by $a$. For such an ideal lattice, we can estimate rather precisely this minimal distance. A simple lower bound is
$lambda_1(mathfrak I) geq Delta_K^{1/2n} cdot N(a)^{1/n}$, where $N$ denotes the algebraic norm of $a$ (that is, the product of all its embeddings), and $Delta_K$ is the discriminant of field $K = mathbb Q(x)/(x^n+1)$. The reason is that the minimal vector $x$ must generate a subideal of $mathfrak I$, so $N(x) geq N(a)$, and $|x|^n geq Delta_K^{1/2} N(x)$. An upper bound is also given by Minkowski's theorem.






share|improve this answer























  • Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
    – P.B.
    yesterday










  • There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
    – P.B.
    yesterday















up vote
5
down vote



accepted










I'm assuming $n$ is a power of $2$ and that $q$ is an odd prime larger than $n$. I'm discarding the trivial case $s_1 = s_2$.



If you consider everything $mod q$, then it is most likely over the choice of $a$ that there exists $s_1 neq s_2$ such that $|a s_1 - a s_2| = sqrt{n}$. Indeed, $a$ is invertible in $R_q$ with probability about $1 - n/q$. Take $s_2 = s_1 - a^{-1}$, then you have $a s_1 - a s_2 = 1 mod q$ and the embedding norm of $1$ is $sqrt{n}$.



If you do not consider this $mod q$, i.e. you work in $R=mathbb Z[x]/⟨f(x)⟩$, then you are precisely asking for the minimal distance $lambda_1(mathfrak I)$ of the ideal lattice $mathfrak I$ generated by $a$. For such an ideal lattice, we can estimate rather precisely this minimal distance. A simple lower bound is
$lambda_1(mathfrak I) geq Delta_K^{1/2n} cdot N(a)^{1/n}$, where $N$ denotes the algebraic norm of $a$ (that is, the product of all its embeddings), and $Delta_K$ is the discriminant of field $K = mathbb Q(x)/(x^n+1)$. The reason is that the minimal vector $x$ must generate a subideal of $mathfrak I$, so $N(x) geq N(a)$, and $|x|^n geq Delta_K^{1/2} N(x)$. An upper bound is also given by Minkowski's theorem.






share|improve this answer























  • Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
    – P.B.
    yesterday










  • There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
    – P.B.
    yesterday













up vote
5
down vote



accepted







up vote
5
down vote



accepted






I'm assuming $n$ is a power of $2$ and that $q$ is an odd prime larger than $n$. I'm discarding the trivial case $s_1 = s_2$.



If you consider everything $mod q$, then it is most likely over the choice of $a$ that there exists $s_1 neq s_2$ such that $|a s_1 - a s_2| = sqrt{n}$. Indeed, $a$ is invertible in $R_q$ with probability about $1 - n/q$. Take $s_2 = s_1 - a^{-1}$, then you have $a s_1 - a s_2 = 1 mod q$ and the embedding norm of $1$ is $sqrt{n}$.



If you do not consider this $mod q$, i.e. you work in $R=mathbb Z[x]/⟨f(x)⟩$, then you are precisely asking for the minimal distance $lambda_1(mathfrak I)$ of the ideal lattice $mathfrak I$ generated by $a$. For such an ideal lattice, we can estimate rather precisely this minimal distance. A simple lower bound is
$lambda_1(mathfrak I) geq Delta_K^{1/2n} cdot N(a)^{1/n}$, where $N$ denotes the algebraic norm of $a$ (that is, the product of all its embeddings), and $Delta_K$ is the discriminant of field $K = mathbb Q(x)/(x^n+1)$. The reason is that the minimal vector $x$ must generate a subideal of $mathfrak I$, so $N(x) geq N(a)$, and $|x|^n geq Delta_K^{1/2} N(x)$. An upper bound is also given by Minkowski's theorem.






share|improve this answer














I'm assuming $n$ is a power of $2$ and that $q$ is an odd prime larger than $n$. I'm discarding the trivial case $s_1 = s_2$.



If you consider everything $mod q$, then it is most likely over the choice of $a$ that there exists $s_1 neq s_2$ such that $|a s_1 - a s_2| = sqrt{n}$. Indeed, $a$ is invertible in $R_q$ with probability about $1 - n/q$. Take $s_2 = s_1 - a^{-1}$, then you have $a s_1 - a s_2 = 1 mod q$ and the embedding norm of $1$ is $sqrt{n}$.



If you do not consider this $mod q$, i.e. you work in $R=mathbb Z[x]/⟨f(x)⟩$, then you are precisely asking for the minimal distance $lambda_1(mathfrak I)$ of the ideal lattice $mathfrak I$ generated by $a$. For such an ideal lattice, we can estimate rather precisely this minimal distance. A simple lower bound is
$lambda_1(mathfrak I) geq Delta_K^{1/2n} cdot N(a)^{1/n}$, where $N$ denotes the algebraic norm of $a$ (that is, the product of all its embeddings), and $Delta_K$ is the discriminant of field $K = mathbb Q(x)/(x^n+1)$. The reason is that the minimal vector $x$ must generate a subideal of $mathfrak I$, so $N(x) geq N(a)$, and $|x|^n geq Delta_K^{1/2} N(x)$. An upper bound is also given by Minkowski's theorem.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 2 days ago









Ella Rose

14.3k43775




14.3k43775










answered 2 days ago









LeoDucas

38516




38516












  • Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
    – P.B.
    yesterday










  • There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
    – P.B.
    yesterday


















  • Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
    – P.B.
    2 days ago










  • Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
    – P.B.
    yesterday










  • There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
    – LeoDucas
    yesterday










  • Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
    – P.B.
    yesterday
















Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
– P.B.
2 days ago




Shouldn't the embedding norm of 1 be 1?
– P.B.
2 days ago












Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
– LeoDucas
yesterday




Well, each embedding of 1 is one, so we are looking at the norm of (1, 1, ... 1), right ?
– LeoDucas
yesterday












So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
– P.B.
yesterday




So this is the canonical embedding we are talking about right? In this case, we have that $||as_1-as_2||geq sqrt{n}$? Or are you just saying that there are $s_1,s_2$ such that $||as_1-as_2||= sqrt{n}$ but there could be others $r_1,r_2$ for which the differente between $ar_1$ and $ar_2$ is even lower?
– P.B.
yesterday












There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
– LeoDucas
yesterday




There could be $0$ as well ;). BBut nothing in between indeed, at least for that particular ring.
– LeoDucas
yesterday












Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
– P.B.
yesterday




Thank you for your help! Can you provide me some references about these facts? It would be very useful.
– P.B.
yesterday


















 

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