Couldn't we always redefine units so that inertial mass and gravitational mass are equal?
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14
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It is a known fact that Inertial and gravitational mass are the same thing, and therefore are numerically equal. This is not an obvious thing, since there are even experiments trying to find a different between the two kind of masses. What I don't understand is: why is this not obvious? Usually when something that isn't considered obvious seems obvious to me there's something deep that I'm not getting.
Here's my line of thought:
The Inertial mass is defined by
$$
{bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}
$$
The gravitational mass is derived from the fact that the gravitational force between two objects is proportional to the product of the masses of the objects:
$$
{bf{F_g}} = -G frac{m_{G1} m_{G2}}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}
$$
Now if the only force acting on the object $1$ is the gravitational force, I can equate equations $(1)$ and $(2)$, and I can always fix the constant $G$ in such a way that the gravitational mass and the Inertial mass are numerically equal.
What's wrong with this line of thought and why the equivalence is not really so obvious?
newtonian-mechanics newtonian-gravity mass dimensional-analysis inertia
add a comment |
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
It is a known fact that Inertial and gravitational mass are the same thing, and therefore are numerically equal. This is not an obvious thing, since there are even experiments trying to find a different between the two kind of masses. What I don't understand is: why is this not obvious? Usually when something that isn't considered obvious seems obvious to me there's something deep that I'm not getting.
Here's my line of thought:
The Inertial mass is defined by
$$
{bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}
$$
The gravitational mass is derived from the fact that the gravitational force between two objects is proportional to the product of the masses of the objects:
$$
{bf{F_g}} = -G frac{m_{G1} m_{G2}}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}
$$
Now if the only force acting on the object $1$ is the gravitational force, I can equate equations $(1)$ and $(2)$, and I can always fix the constant $G$ in such a way that the gravitational mass and the Inertial mass are numerically equal.
What's wrong with this line of thought and why the equivalence is not really so obvious?
newtonian-mechanics newtonian-gravity mass dimensional-analysis inertia
1
Your procedure only works if the two masses are proportional. In that case yes, we can redefine the units to make them equal. Otherwise we can't.
– Javier
11 hours ago
4
Technically inertial and gravitational mass are merely proportional, not necessarily equal. One could say that the "true" gravitational mass is really $m_g = sqrt{G} m_i$...
– Aetol
10 hours ago
How are they equal? They have different units in the end because G isn't dimensionless.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
the equivalence principle can be restated in this way "gravitation is an acceleration field, not a force field"
– lurscher
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
It is a known fact that Inertial and gravitational mass are the same thing, and therefore are numerically equal. This is not an obvious thing, since there are even experiments trying to find a different between the two kind of masses. What I don't understand is: why is this not obvious? Usually when something that isn't considered obvious seems obvious to me there's something deep that I'm not getting.
Here's my line of thought:
The Inertial mass is defined by
$$
{bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}
$$
The gravitational mass is derived from the fact that the gravitational force between two objects is proportional to the product of the masses of the objects:
$$
{bf{F_g}} = -G frac{m_{G1} m_{G2}}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}
$$
Now if the only force acting on the object $1$ is the gravitational force, I can equate equations $(1)$ and $(2)$, and I can always fix the constant $G$ in such a way that the gravitational mass and the Inertial mass are numerically equal.
What's wrong with this line of thought and why the equivalence is not really so obvious?
newtonian-mechanics newtonian-gravity mass dimensional-analysis inertia
It is a known fact that Inertial and gravitational mass are the same thing, and therefore are numerically equal. This is not an obvious thing, since there are even experiments trying to find a different between the two kind of masses. What I don't understand is: why is this not obvious? Usually when something that isn't considered obvious seems obvious to me there's something deep that I'm not getting.
Here's my line of thought:
The Inertial mass is defined by
$$
{bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}
$$
The gravitational mass is derived from the fact that the gravitational force between two objects is proportional to the product of the masses of the objects:
$$
{bf{F_g}} = -G frac{m_{G1} m_{G2}}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}
$$
Now if the only force acting on the object $1$ is the gravitational force, I can equate equations $(1)$ and $(2)$, and I can always fix the constant $G$ in such a way that the gravitational mass and the Inertial mass are numerically equal.
What's wrong with this line of thought and why the equivalence is not really so obvious?
newtonian-mechanics newtonian-gravity mass dimensional-analysis inertia
newtonian-mechanics newtonian-gravity mass dimensional-analysis inertia
edited 7 hours ago
Qmechanic♦
100k121821133
100k121821133
asked 12 hours ago
Run like hell
976524
976524
1
Your procedure only works if the two masses are proportional. In that case yes, we can redefine the units to make them equal. Otherwise we can't.
– Javier
11 hours ago
4
Technically inertial and gravitational mass are merely proportional, not necessarily equal. One could say that the "true" gravitational mass is really $m_g = sqrt{G} m_i$...
– Aetol
10 hours ago
How are they equal? They have different units in the end because G isn't dimensionless.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
the equivalence principle can be restated in this way "gravitation is an acceleration field, not a force field"
– lurscher
3 hours ago
add a comment |
1
Your procedure only works if the two masses are proportional. In that case yes, we can redefine the units to make them equal. Otherwise we can't.
– Javier
11 hours ago
4
Technically inertial and gravitational mass are merely proportional, not necessarily equal. One could say that the "true" gravitational mass is really $m_g = sqrt{G} m_i$...
– Aetol
10 hours ago
How are they equal? They have different units in the end because G isn't dimensionless.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
the equivalence principle can be restated in this way "gravitation is an acceleration field, not a force field"
– lurscher
3 hours ago
1
1
Your procedure only works if the two masses are proportional. In that case yes, we can redefine the units to make them equal. Otherwise we can't.
– Javier
11 hours ago
Your procedure only works if the two masses are proportional. In that case yes, we can redefine the units to make them equal. Otherwise we can't.
– Javier
11 hours ago
4
4
Technically inertial and gravitational mass are merely proportional, not necessarily equal. One could say that the "true" gravitational mass is really $m_g = sqrt{G} m_i$...
– Aetol
10 hours ago
Technically inertial and gravitational mass are merely proportional, not necessarily equal. One could say that the "true" gravitational mass is really $m_g = sqrt{G} m_i$...
– Aetol
10 hours ago
How are they equal? They have different units in the end because G isn't dimensionless.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
How are they equal? They have different units in the end because G isn't dimensionless.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
the equivalence principle can be restated in this way "gravitation is an acceleration field, not a force field"
– lurscher
3 hours ago
the equivalence principle can be restated in this way "gravitation is an acceleration field, not a force field"
– lurscher
3 hours ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
up vote
23
down vote
To make it clear that it is not obvious it is better to stop using the word "mass" in both cases. So it is better to say that it is not obvious that the inertial resistance, meaning the property that scales how different objects accelerate under the same given force, is the same as the "gravitational charge", meaning the property that scales the gravitational field that different objects produce.
Just to make it clear, the problem with the equivalence of masses is not "does $m_i=1$ implie $m_{G}=1$?" in whatever units. The real question is, "does doubling the inertial mass actually double the gravitational mass?". So your procedure of redefinition of G, while keeping it as a constant, is only valid if the ratio $ {m_i}/{m_G}$ is constant, meaning if there is a constant scale factor between the inertial mass and the gravitational mass. By the way, this scale factor would actually never be noticed since from the begginning it would already be accounted for in the constant $G$.
You could do the same thing with electrical forces, using Coulombs law. You can check if electrical charge is the same as mass, since you have:
$${bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}$$
$${bf{F_g}} = -K frac{k_1 k_2}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}$$
You can ask, is $k_1$ the same as $m_i$? And it is true that for one specific case you could redefine $K$ such that it would come out that $k_1$ and $m_i$ are the same, but it would not pass the scaling test, since doubling the inertial mass does not double the charge.
4
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
Scenario I: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 15
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that all my gravitational masses will be multiplied by $3/2$. Problem solved, just like you said!
Scenario II: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 20
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that the white ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $3/2$. Or maybe I should fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $1/2$ so the black ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $2$. Uh oh. Neither solution manages to cover both cases.
The full content of the statement that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass" is that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass provided you choose the right units". This doesn't rule out Situtation 1, but it rules out Situation 2. The fact that Situation 2 can't occur is a substantive statement.
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
It's kind of difficult since we have so much prior intuition that gravitational and inertial mass are the same thing because we know that something heavy to lift also takes more force to accelerate, but there's not really any inherent reason why this should be the case. I think it helps if you call the quantity that goes into the gravitational force law "gravitational charge", to differentiate it from the one in $F = ma$. The question then is "why is the gravitational charge the quantity that determines how much inertia an object has?" (up to a constant scaling factor that you can, indeed, incorporate into $G$).
You could imagine a universe where the magnitude of the electric charge is what determines an object's inertia, and now Newton's second law becomes $F = Sigma |q_i|a$ for an object made up of a number of charged particles. Now an electron and a proton would accelerate to the same speed if you subjected them to the same potential difference, but an atom of hydrogen (mass ~1 GeV) and an atom of positronium (a bound electron and positron, mass ~1 MeV) would fall at different speeds - the force of gravity would still be the same as it is in our universe for each particle, so it would be larger for the hydrogen, but would no longer be balanced by the larger inertial mass of hydrogen proportionally decreasing its acceleration.
Interestingly, if the physical laws of our universe suddenly switched to this behaviour it actually wouldn't be immediately obvious. Since regular matter is made up of equal numbers of protons and electrons, doubling the amount of stuff in something would double both this "electrical inertia" and the regular inertia due to mass, I think the most obvious effect would be plasmas behaving very strangely. Note that I'm ignoring neutrons in this because I didn't think of them and quark charges until now.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Try it like this; "All objects follow the same trajectory in a gravitational field".
That means that the force of gravity on an object, which alters its momentum, scales exactly with its inertial mass, which resists that alteration of momentum.
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4 Answers
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
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active
oldest
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up vote
23
down vote
To make it clear that it is not obvious it is better to stop using the word "mass" in both cases. So it is better to say that it is not obvious that the inertial resistance, meaning the property that scales how different objects accelerate under the same given force, is the same as the "gravitational charge", meaning the property that scales the gravitational field that different objects produce.
Just to make it clear, the problem with the equivalence of masses is not "does $m_i=1$ implie $m_{G}=1$?" in whatever units. The real question is, "does doubling the inertial mass actually double the gravitational mass?". So your procedure of redefinition of G, while keeping it as a constant, is only valid if the ratio $ {m_i}/{m_G}$ is constant, meaning if there is a constant scale factor between the inertial mass and the gravitational mass. By the way, this scale factor would actually never be noticed since from the begginning it would already be accounted for in the constant $G$.
You could do the same thing with electrical forces, using Coulombs law. You can check if electrical charge is the same as mass, since you have:
$${bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}$$
$${bf{F_g}} = -K frac{k_1 k_2}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}$$
You can ask, is $k_1$ the same as $m_i$? And it is true that for one specific case you could redefine $K$ such that it would come out that $k_1$ and $m_i$ are the same, but it would not pass the scaling test, since doubling the inertial mass does not double the charge.
4
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
To make it clear that it is not obvious it is better to stop using the word "mass" in both cases. So it is better to say that it is not obvious that the inertial resistance, meaning the property that scales how different objects accelerate under the same given force, is the same as the "gravitational charge", meaning the property that scales the gravitational field that different objects produce.
Just to make it clear, the problem with the equivalence of masses is not "does $m_i=1$ implie $m_{G}=1$?" in whatever units. The real question is, "does doubling the inertial mass actually double the gravitational mass?". So your procedure of redefinition of G, while keeping it as a constant, is only valid if the ratio $ {m_i}/{m_G}$ is constant, meaning if there is a constant scale factor between the inertial mass and the gravitational mass. By the way, this scale factor would actually never be noticed since from the begginning it would already be accounted for in the constant $G$.
You could do the same thing with electrical forces, using Coulombs law. You can check if electrical charge is the same as mass, since you have:
$${bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}$$
$${bf{F_g}} = -K frac{k_1 k_2}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}$$
You can ask, is $k_1$ the same as $m_i$? And it is true that for one specific case you could redefine $K$ such that it would come out that $k_1$ and $m_i$ are the same, but it would not pass the scaling test, since doubling the inertial mass does not double the charge.
4
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
23
down vote
up vote
23
down vote
To make it clear that it is not obvious it is better to stop using the word "mass" in both cases. So it is better to say that it is not obvious that the inertial resistance, meaning the property that scales how different objects accelerate under the same given force, is the same as the "gravitational charge", meaning the property that scales the gravitational field that different objects produce.
Just to make it clear, the problem with the equivalence of masses is not "does $m_i=1$ implie $m_{G}=1$?" in whatever units. The real question is, "does doubling the inertial mass actually double the gravitational mass?". So your procedure of redefinition of G, while keeping it as a constant, is only valid if the ratio $ {m_i}/{m_G}$ is constant, meaning if there is a constant scale factor between the inertial mass and the gravitational mass. By the way, this scale factor would actually never be noticed since from the begginning it would already be accounted for in the constant $G$.
You could do the same thing with electrical forces, using Coulombs law. You can check if electrical charge is the same as mass, since you have:
$${bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}$$
$${bf{F_g}} = -K frac{k_1 k_2}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}$$
You can ask, is $k_1$ the same as $m_i$? And it is true that for one specific case you could redefine $K$ such that it would come out that $k_1$ and $m_i$ are the same, but it would not pass the scaling test, since doubling the inertial mass does not double the charge.
To make it clear that it is not obvious it is better to stop using the word "mass" in both cases. So it is better to say that it is not obvious that the inertial resistance, meaning the property that scales how different objects accelerate under the same given force, is the same as the "gravitational charge", meaning the property that scales the gravitational field that different objects produce.
Just to make it clear, the problem with the equivalence of masses is not "does $m_i=1$ implie $m_{G}=1$?" in whatever units. The real question is, "does doubling the inertial mass actually double the gravitational mass?". So your procedure of redefinition of G, while keeping it as a constant, is only valid if the ratio $ {m_i}/{m_G}$ is constant, meaning if there is a constant scale factor between the inertial mass and the gravitational mass. By the way, this scale factor would actually never be noticed since from the begginning it would already be accounted for in the constant $G$.
You could do the same thing with electrical forces, using Coulombs law. You can check if electrical charge is the same as mass, since you have:
$${bf{F}} = m_i {bf{a}} tag{1}$$
$${bf{F_g}} = -K frac{k_1 k_2}{|{bf{r}}_{12}|^2} hat{{bf{r}}} tag{2}$$
You can ask, is $k_1$ the same as $m_i$? And it is true that for one specific case you could redefine $K$ such that it would come out that $k_1$ and $m_i$ are the same, but it would not pass the scaling test, since doubling the inertial mass does not double the charge.
answered 11 hours ago
Hugo V
1,292316
1,292316
4
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
add a comment |
4
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
4
4
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
As far as I can see, the fundamental issue is not with doubling, but already with singling. That is: do any two objects with the same inertial mass also have the same gravitational mass?
– Emil Jeřábek
9 hours ago
4
4
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
Sure, I agree, but I used the "doubling" as an example. I meant that the question is if the ratio of inertial mass to gravitational mass is the same for all objects. So that covers both the case of doubling $m_i$ and getting double $m_g$, as well as your case, which is if different objects with $m_i$ will have the same $m_g$. If the ratio is the same for all objects of all masses, then the masses are equivalent no matter what.
– Hugo V
9 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV Tell me if I'm correct, the impressive thing is the fact that gravitational charge is the same of the Inertial mass, and it's nowhere written that this should be true a priori. I have another point then, when I say that the gravitational force is proportional to the product of the Inertial masses, I'm making a clear statement, this statement is Newton's law of gravitation right? Then I check experimentally if this is true and since it happens to be true I can say that my law is correct and therefore a the two masses are the same. Continue in next comment
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
@HugoV An observed discrepancy (with the inverse square law still observed) would make it clear that my statement is wrong and therefore gravitational mass and Inertial mass are different, am I right?
– Run like hell
3 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
Scenario I: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 15
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that all my gravitational masses will be multiplied by $3/2$. Problem solved, just like you said!
Scenario II: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 20
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that the white ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $3/2$. Or maybe I should fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $1/2$ so the black ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $2$. Uh oh. Neither solution manages to cover both cases.
The full content of the statement that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass" is that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass provided you choose the right units". This doesn't rule out Situtation 1, but it rules out Situation 2. The fact that Situation 2 can't occur is a substantive statement.
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
Scenario I: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 15
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that all my gravitational masses will be multiplied by $3/2$. Problem solved, just like you said!
Scenario II: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 20
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that the white ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $3/2$. Or maybe I should fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $1/2$ so the black ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $2$. Uh oh. Neither solution manages to cover both cases.
The full content of the statement that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass" is that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass provided you choose the right units". This doesn't rule out Situtation 1, but it rules out Situation 2. The fact that Situation 2 can't occur is a substantive statement.
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
9
down vote
up vote
9
down vote
Scenario I: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 15
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that all my gravitational masses will be multiplied by $3/2$. Problem solved, just like you said!
Scenario II: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 20
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that the white ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $3/2$. Or maybe I should fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $1/2$ so the black ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $2$. Uh oh. Neither solution manages to cover both cases.
The full content of the statement that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass" is that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass provided you choose the right units". This doesn't rule out Situtation 1, but it rules out Situation 2. The fact that Situation 2 can't occur is a substantive statement.
Scenario I: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 15
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that all my gravitational masses will be multiplied by $3/2$. Problem solved, just like you said!
Scenario II: I have a white ball and a black ball. In the system of units I've adopted, I discover that:
Gravitational mass of white ball = 2
Inertial mass of white ball = 3
Gravitational mass of black ball = 10
Inertial mass of black ball = 20
But I want each ball's gravitational mass to equal its inertial mass. So I fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $2/3$ so that the white ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $3/2$. Or maybe I should fix the constant $G$, multiplying it by $1/2$ so the black ball's gravitational mass will be multiplied by $2$. Uh oh. Neither solution manages to cover both cases.
The full content of the statement that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass" is that "gravitational mass equals inertial mass provided you choose the right units". This doesn't rule out Situtation 1, but it rules out Situation 2. The fact that Situation 2 can't occur is a substantive statement.
edited 5 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
WillO
6,43222031
6,43222031
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
add a comment |
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
@GregSchmit : Thank you! Fixed now.
– WillO
5 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
This is the most intuitive and straightforward explanation.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
Another suggestion: maybe put each line in each scenario in the same blockquote.
– Greg Schmit
4 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
It's kind of difficult since we have so much prior intuition that gravitational and inertial mass are the same thing because we know that something heavy to lift also takes more force to accelerate, but there's not really any inherent reason why this should be the case. I think it helps if you call the quantity that goes into the gravitational force law "gravitational charge", to differentiate it from the one in $F = ma$. The question then is "why is the gravitational charge the quantity that determines how much inertia an object has?" (up to a constant scaling factor that you can, indeed, incorporate into $G$).
You could imagine a universe where the magnitude of the electric charge is what determines an object's inertia, and now Newton's second law becomes $F = Sigma |q_i|a$ for an object made up of a number of charged particles. Now an electron and a proton would accelerate to the same speed if you subjected them to the same potential difference, but an atom of hydrogen (mass ~1 GeV) and an atom of positronium (a bound electron and positron, mass ~1 MeV) would fall at different speeds - the force of gravity would still be the same as it is in our universe for each particle, so it would be larger for the hydrogen, but would no longer be balanced by the larger inertial mass of hydrogen proportionally decreasing its acceleration.
Interestingly, if the physical laws of our universe suddenly switched to this behaviour it actually wouldn't be immediately obvious. Since regular matter is made up of equal numbers of protons and electrons, doubling the amount of stuff in something would double both this "electrical inertia" and the regular inertia due to mass, I think the most obvious effect would be plasmas behaving very strangely. Note that I'm ignoring neutrons in this because I didn't think of them and quark charges until now.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
It's kind of difficult since we have so much prior intuition that gravitational and inertial mass are the same thing because we know that something heavy to lift also takes more force to accelerate, but there's not really any inherent reason why this should be the case. I think it helps if you call the quantity that goes into the gravitational force law "gravitational charge", to differentiate it from the one in $F = ma$. The question then is "why is the gravitational charge the quantity that determines how much inertia an object has?" (up to a constant scaling factor that you can, indeed, incorporate into $G$).
You could imagine a universe where the magnitude of the electric charge is what determines an object's inertia, and now Newton's second law becomes $F = Sigma |q_i|a$ for an object made up of a number of charged particles. Now an electron and a proton would accelerate to the same speed if you subjected them to the same potential difference, but an atom of hydrogen (mass ~1 GeV) and an atom of positronium (a bound electron and positron, mass ~1 MeV) would fall at different speeds - the force of gravity would still be the same as it is in our universe for each particle, so it would be larger for the hydrogen, but would no longer be balanced by the larger inertial mass of hydrogen proportionally decreasing its acceleration.
Interestingly, if the physical laws of our universe suddenly switched to this behaviour it actually wouldn't be immediately obvious. Since regular matter is made up of equal numbers of protons and electrons, doubling the amount of stuff in something would double both this "electrical inertia" and the regular inertia due to mass, I think the most obvious effect would be plasmas behaving very strangely. Note that I'm ignoring neutrons in this because I didn't think of them and quark charges until now.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
It's kind of difficult since we have so much prior intuition that gravitational and inertial mass are the same thing because we know that something heavy to lift also takes more force to accelerate, but there's not really any inherent reason why this should be the case. I think it helps if you call the quantity that goes into the gravitational force law "gravitational charge", to differentiate it from the one in $F = ma$. The question then is "why is the gravitational charge the quantity that determines how much inertia an object has?" (up to a constant scaling factor that you can, indeed, incorporate into $G$).
You could imagine a universe where the magnitude of the electric charge is what determines an object's inertia, and now Newton's second law becomes $F = Sigma |q_i|a$ for an object made up of a number of charged particles. Now an electron and a proton would accelerate to the same speed if you subjected them to the same potential difference, but an atom of hydrogen (mass ~1 GeV) and an atom of positronium (a bound electron and positron, mass ~1 MeV) would fall at different speeds - the force of gravity would still be the same as it is in our universe for each particle, so it would be larger for the hydrogen, but would no longer be balanced by the larger inertial mass of hydrogen proportionally decreasing its acceleration.
Interestingly, if the physical laws of our universe suddenly switched to this behaviour it actually wouldn't be immediately obvious. Since regular matter is made up of equal numbers of protons and electrons, doubling the amount of stuff in something would double both this "electrical inertia" and the regular inertia due to mass, I think the most obvious effect would be plasmas behaving very strangely. Note that I'm ignoring neutrons in this because I didn't think of them and quark charges until now.
It's kind of difficult since we have so much prior intuition that gravitational and inertial mass are the same thing because we know that something heavy to lift also takes more force to accelerate, but there's not really any inherent reason why this should be the case. I think it helps if you call the quantity that goes into the gravitational force law "gravitational charge", to differentiate it from the one in $F = ma$. The question then is "why is the gravitational charge the quantity that determines how much inertia an object has?" (up to a constant scaling factor that you can, indeed, incorporate into $G$).
You could imagine a universe where the magnitude of the electric charge is what determines an object's inertia, and now Newton's second law becomes $F = Sigma |q_i|a$ for an object made up of a number of charged particles. Now an electron and a proton would accelerate to the same speed if you subjected them to the same potential difference, but an atom of hydrogen (mass ~1 GeV) and an atom of positronium (a bound electron and positron, mass ~1 MeV) would fall at different speeds - the force of gravity would still be the same as it is in our universe for each particle, so it would be larger for the hydrogen, but would no longer be balanced by the larger inertial mass of hydrogen proportionally decreasing its acceleration.
Interestingly, if the physical laws of our universe suddenly switched to this behaviour it actually wouldn't be immediately obvious. Since regular matter is made up of equal numbers of protons and electrons, doubling the amount of stuff in something would double both this "electrical inertia" and the regular inertia due to mass, I think the most obvious effect would be plasmas behaving very strangely. Note that I'm ignoring neutrons in this because I didn't think of them and quark charges until now.
answered 6 hours ago
llama
21116
21116
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Try it like this; "All objects follow the same trajectory in a gravitational field".
That means that the force of gravity on an object, which alters its momentum, scales exactly with its inertial mass, which resists that alteration of momentum.
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Try it like this; "All objects follow the same trajectory in a gravitational field".
That means that the force of gravity on an object, which alters its momentum, scales exactly with its inertial mass, which resists that alteration of momentum.
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Try it like this; "All objects follow the same trajectory in a gravitational field".
That means that the force of gravity on an object, which alters its momentum, scales exactly with its inertial mass, which resists that alteration of momentum.
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Try it like this; "All objects follow the same trajectory in a gravitational field".
That means that the force of gravity on an object, which alters its momentum, scales exactly with its inertial mass, which resists that alteration of momentum.
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 3 hours ago
Jerome
211
211
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Jerome is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
add a comment |
add a comment |
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1
Your procedure only works if the two masses are proportional. In that case yes, we can redefine the units to make them equal. Otherwise we can't.
– Javier
11 hours ago
4
Technically inertial and gravitational mass are merely proportional, not necessarily equal. One could say that the "true" gravitational mass is really $m_g = sqrt{G} m_i$...
– Aetol
10 hours ago
How are they equal? They have different units in the end because G isn't dimensionless.
– Joshua
4 hours ago
the equivalence principle can be restated in this way "gravitation is an acceleration field, not a force field"
– lurscher
3 hours ago