Field Extension Equality
$begingroup$
I want to show the following:
Let $E/K$ be a field extension and $1+1 neq 0$. Let $alpha , beta in K^* $. Show
$K(sqrt{alpha}$)= $K(sqrt{beta}$)$Leftrightarrow$ $exists$ a $gamma in K^*$ with $alpha = gamma ^2 beta$
Now I had some ideas but they didn't solve the problem for me. A lot would be easier if I could just assume that the $K$-Basis of $K(alpha$) ist {1,$alpha$}. But I don't know if that is the case. I would appreciate any help to solve this problem.
Edit: I am really sorry that I forgot to put on the square.. sorry guys. I also would like to add, that we had no minimal polynomial yet.
Best
KingDingeling
abstract-algebra field-theory extension-field
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I want to show the following:
Let $E/K$ be a field extension and $1+1 neq 0$. Let $alpha , beta in K^* $. Show
$K(sqrt{alpha}$)= $K(sqrt{beta}$)$Leftrightarrow$ $exists$ a $gamma in K^*$ with $alpha = gamma ^2 beta$
Now I had some ideas but they didn't solve the problem for me. A lot would be easier if I could just assume that the $K$-Basis of $K(alpha$) ist {1,$alpha$}. But I don't know if that is the case. I would appreciate any help to solve this problem.
Edit: I am really sorry that I forgot to put on the square.. sorry guys. I also would like to add, that we had no minimal polynomial yet.
Best
KingDingeling
abstract-algebra field-theory extension-field
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
If $alphain K^times,$ then $K(alpha) = K.$ Did you mean that $alpha,betain E^timessetminus K^times$ and to also assume that $[E : K] = 2$?
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 15:35
$begingroup$
I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$. I'm sorry.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:23
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I want to show the following:
Let $E/K$ be a field extension and $1+1 neq 0$. Let $alpha , beta in K^* $. Show
$K(sqrt{alpha}$)= $K(sqrt{beta}$)$Leftrightarrow$ $exists$ a $gamma in K^*$ with $alpha = gamma ^2 beta$
Now I had some ideas but they didn't solve the problem for me. A lot would be easier if I could just assume that the $K$-Basis of $K(alpha$) ist {1,$alpha$}. But I don't know if that is the case. I would appreciate any help to solve this problem.
Edit: I am really sorry that I forgot to put on the square.. sorry guys. I also would like to add, that we had no minimal polynomial yet.
Best
KingDingeling
abstract-algebra field-theory extension-field
$endgroup$
I want to show the following:
Let $E/K$ be a field extension and $1+1 neq 0$. Let $alpha , beta in K^* $. Show
$K(sqrt{alpha}$)= $K(sqrt{beta}$)$Leftrightarrow$ $exists$ a $gamma in K^*$ with $alpha = gamma ^2 beta$
Now I had some ideas but they didn't solve the problem for me. A lot would be easier if I could just assume that the $K$-Basis of $K(alpha$) ist {1,$alpha$}. But I don't know if that is the case. I would appreciate any help to solve this problem.
Edit: I am really sorry that I forgot to put on the square.. sorry guys. I also would like to add, that we had no minimal polynomial yet.
Best
KingDingeling
abstract-algebra field-theory extension-field
abstract-algebra field-theory extension-field
edited Dec 26 '18 at 17:22
KingDingeling
asked Dec 26 '18 at 15:22
KingDingelingKingDingeling
1607
1607
1
$begingroup$
If $alphain K^times,$ then $K(alpha) = K.$ Did you mean that $alpha,betain E^timessetminus K^times$ and to also assume that $[E : K] = 2$?
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 15:35
$begingroup$
I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$. I'm sorry.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:23
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
If $alphain K^times,$ then $K(alpha) = K.$ Did you mean that $alpha,betain E^timessetminus K^times$ and to also assume that $[E : K] = 2$?
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 15:35
$begingroup$
I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$. I'm sorry.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:23
1
1
$begingroup$
If $alphain K^times,$ then $K(alpha) = K.$ Did you mean that $alpha,betain E^timessetminus K^times$ and to also assume that $[E : K] = 2$?
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 15:35
$begingroup$
If $alphain K^times,$ then $K(alpha) = K.$ Did you mean that $alpha,betain E^timessetminus K^times$ and to also assume that $[E : K] = 2$?
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 15:35
$begingroup$
I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$. I'm sorry.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:23
$begingroup$
I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$. I'm sorry.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:23
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
$E$ is irrelevant now, so I will ignore it. It may serve a technical purpose equivalent to assuming that all of the below occurs inside a fixed algebraic closure, so that we may actually write that the field extensions are equal instead of just abstractly isomorphic. We will make this assumption. Let $K,alpha,beta$ be as in the revised statement.
$K(sqrt{alpha})$ and $K(sqrt{beta})$ have degrees at most $2$ over $K,$ as the minimal polynomial $f$ of $sqrt{alpha}$ divides $x^2 - alpha$ (and similarly for $sqrt{beta}.$ The degree is $2$ if $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ and $1$ if $sqrt{alpha}in K.$
First, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta}) = K.$ Then $frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}in K,$ and $alpha = left(frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}right)^2beta,$ as required.
Now, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ In this case, $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ so that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a $K$-basis of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ (similarly for $beta$). This implies that we may write
$$
sqrt{beta} = a + bsqrt{alpha}
$$
for some $a,bin K.$ Squaring both sides, we find
$$
beta = a^2 + 2absqrt{alpha} + alpha.
$$
This implies that $2absqrt{alpha} = beta - alpha - a^2in K,$ and since we already observed that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis for $K(sqrt{alpha})/K,$ this means that $a$ or $b$ is zero (this is where we use the fact that the characteristic is not $2$).
If $b = 0,$ we have $sqrt{beta} = ain K,$ which contradicts the assumption that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ Thus, we must have
$$
sqrt{beta} = bsqrt{alpha},
$$
and squaring both sides gives the desired result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
There appear to be some typos in your post, so if you update your question I think that this answer will no longer be valid.
Let $K=mathbb{Q}$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. Take $alpha=pi$ and $beta=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}$. Note that $2(beta-1)^{-1}+1=alpha$, so that $K(alpha)=K(beta)$.
However, there cannot be a $gammain K^times$ such that $alpha=gamma^2beta$ or we would have
$$
pi=gamma^2frac{pi+1}{pi-1} quad Rightarrow quad pi^2-(gamma^2+1)pi-gamma^2=0
$$
which is a contradiction, since $pi$ is transcendental over $mathbb{Q}$.
I have assumed some of the corrections left as a comment on your post, except that $[E:K]=2$. So if you meant that in addition to the fact that $K$ is not characteristic $2$ this answer obviously fails.
EDIT: In fact, I don't even think that the criterion of $[E:K]=2$ is enough to salvage this question. Consider $K=mathbb{Q}(pi^2)$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. This is a degree $2$ extension, and if all other choices are made as above then you still end up with a contradiction (though the final contradiction takes a bit more effort to show that it is a nonzero polynomial).
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Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
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@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
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– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
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Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
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@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
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– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
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I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
|
show 5 more comments
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
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$begingroup$
$E$ is irrelevant now, so I will ignore it. It may serve a technical purpose equivalent to assuming that all of the below occurs inside a fixed algebraic closure, so that we may actually write that the field extensions are equal instead of just abstractly isomorphic. We will make this assumption. Let $K,alpha,beta$ be as in the revised statement.
$K(sqrt{alpha})$ and $K(sqrt{beta})$ have degrees at most $2$ over $K,$ as the minimal polynomial $f$ of $sqrt{alpha}$ divides $x^2 - alpha$ (and similarly for $sqrt{beta}.$ The degree is $2$ if $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ and $1$ if $sqrt{alpha}in K.$
First, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta}) = K.$ Then $frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}in K,$ and $alpha = left(frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}right)^2beta,$ as required.
Now, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ In this case, $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ so that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a $K$-basis of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ (similarly for $beta$). This implies that we may write
$$
sqrt{beta} = a + bsqrt{alpha}
$$
for some $a,bin K.$ Squaring both sides, we find
$$
beta = a^2 + 2absqrt{alpha} + alpha.
$$
This implies that $2absqrt{alpha} = beta - alpha - a^2in K,$ and since we already observed that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis for $K(sqrt{alpha})/K,$ this means that $a$ or $b$ is zero (this is where we use the fact that the characteristic is not $2$).
If $b = 0,$ we have $sqrt{beta} = ain K,$ which contradicts the assumption that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ Thus, we must have
$$
sqrt{beta} = bsqrt{alpha},
$$
and squaring both sides gives the desired result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
$E$ is irrelevant now, so I will ignore it. It may serve a technical purpose equivalent to assuming that all of the below occurs inside a fixed algebraic closure, so that we may actually write that the field extensions are equal instead of just abstractly isomorphic. We will make this assumption. Let $K,alpha,beta$ be as in the revised statement.
$K(sqrt{alpha})$ and $K(sqrt{beta})$ have degrees at most $2$ over $K,$ as the minimal polynomial $f$ of $sqrt{alpha}$ divides $x^2 - alpha$ (and similarly for $sqrt{beta}.$ The degree is $2$ if $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ and $1$ if $sqrt{alpha}in K.$
First, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta}) = K.$ Then $frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}in K,$ and $alpha = left(frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}right)^2beta,$ as required.
Now, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ In this case, $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ so that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a $K$-basis of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ (similarly for $beta$). This implies that we may write
$$
sqrt{beta} = a + bsqrt{alpha}
$$
for some $a,bin K.$ Squaring both sides, we find
$$
beta = a^2 + 2absqrt{alpha} + alpha.
$$
This implies that $2absqrt{alpha} = beta - alpha - a^2in K,$ and since we already observed that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis for $K(sqrt{alpha})/K,$ this means that $a$ or $b$ is zero (this is where we use the fact that the characteristic is not $2$).
If $b = 0,$ we have $sqrt{beta} = ain K,$ which contradicts the assumption that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ Thus, we must have
$$
sqrt{beta} = bsqrt{alpha},
$$
and squaring both sides gives the desired result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
$E$ is irrelevant now, so I will ignore it. It may serve a technical purpose equivalent to assuming that all of the below occurs inside a fixed algebraic closure, so that we may actually write that the field extensions are equal instead of just abstractly isomorphic. We will make this assumption. Let $K,alpha,beta$ be as in the revised statement.
$K(sqrt{alpha})$ and $K(sqrt{beta})$ have degrees at most $2$ over $K,$ as the minimal polynomial $f$ of $sqrt{alpha}$ divides $x^2 - alpha$ (and similarly for $sqrt{beta}.$ The degree is $2$ if $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ and $1$ if $sqrt{alpha}in K.$
First, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta}) = K.$ Then $frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}in K,$ and $alpha = left(frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}right)^2beta,$ as required.
Now, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ In this case, $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ so that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a $K$-basis of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ (similarly for $beta$). This implies that we may write
$$
sqrt{beta} = a + bsqrt{alpha}
$$
for some $a,bin K.$ Squaring both sides, we find
$$
beta = a^2 + 2absqrt{alpha} + alpha.
$$
This implies that $2absqrt{alpha} = beta - alpha - a^2in K,$ and since we already observed that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis for $K(sqrt{alpha})/K,$ this means that $a$ or $b$ is zero (this is where we use the fact that the characteristic is not $2$).
If $b = 0,$ we have $sqrt{beta} = ain K,$ which contradicts the assumption that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ Thus, we must have
$$
sqrt{beta} = bsqrt{alpha},
$$
and squaring both sides gives the desired result.
$endgroup$
$E$ is irrelevant now, so I will ignore it. It may serve a technical purpose equivalent to assuming that all of the below occurs inside a fixed algebraic closure, so that we may actually write that the field extensions are equal instead of just abstractly isomorphic. We will make this assumption. Let $K,alpha,beta$ be as in the revised statement.
$K(sqrt{alpha})$ and $K(sqrt{beta})$ have degrees at most $2$ over $K,$ as the minimal polynomial $f$ of $sqrt{alpha}$ divides $x^2 - alpha$ (and similarly for $sqrt{beta}.$ The degree is $2$ if $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ and $1$ if $sqrt{alpha}in K.$
First, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta}) = K.$ Then $frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}in K,$ and $alpha = left(frac{sqrt{alpha}}{sqrt{beta}}right)^2beta,$ as required.
Now, suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ In this case, $sqrt{alpha}notin K,$ so that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a $K$-basis of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ (similarly for $beta$). This implies that we may write
$$
sqrt{beta} = a + bsqrt{alpha}
$$
for some $a,bin K.$ Squaring both sides, we find
$$
beta = a^2 + 2absqrt{alpha} + alpha.
$$
This implies that $2absqrt{alpha} = beta - alpha - a^2in K,$ and since we already observed that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis for $K(sqrt{alpha})/K,$ this means that $a$ or $b$ is zero (this is where we use the fact that the characteristic is not $2$).
If $b = 0,$ we have $sqrt{beta} = ain K,$ which contradicts the assumption that $K(sqrt{alpha}) = K(sqrt{beta})$ is a degree $2$ extension of $K.$ Thus, we must have
$$
sqrt{beta} = bsqrt{alpha},
$$
and squaring both sides gives the desired result.
edited Dec 26 '18 at 18:23
answered Dec 26 '18 at 18:18
StahlStahl
16.7k43455
16.7k43455
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
Hi @Stahl. Thank you for taking the time and answering this question. You helped me a lot. May I just ask you one thing: We did not have the minimal polynomial yet. I can follow your rational from the point on where you suppose that $K(sqrt{alpha})$ is a degree 2 extension of $K$. I have just these two questions: How do we know or can show that the K-basis is $1,sqrt{alpha}$? This might seem as a super stupid question but I would very much appreciate if you could answer it. And second: How do we get the degree 2 of the extension without the minimal polynomial? Thank you again for helping!
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:28
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
We know that $sqrt{alpha}$ is a root of $x^2 - alpha,$ so the minimal polynomial $f$ is degree either $2$ or $1$ (it must divide $x^2 - alpha$). Since $K(sqrt{alpha})cong K[x]/(f),$ we have that $[K(sqrt{alpha}):K] = deg f.$ Moreover, if the extension is degree two, we must have $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$ Thus, we start with ${1}$ which cannot be a basis because it only has one element, and extend it to ${1,sqrt{alpha}}.$ If $1$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ were linearly dependent, we would find $sqrt{alpha}in K.$ Thus, we have a two-element linearly independent set - it is a basis.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:32
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Hey Stahl, thank you again. Unfortunately we did not had minimum polynomials yet, is there any other way to show your argumentation? And just a last question: Could you please explain why $a$ or $b$ is zero?
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Oh, I thought when you said you had no minimal polynomial, you just didn't know what it was in this case, not that you had not covered it in your class. In any case, you know that elements of $K(sqrt{alpha})$ are of the form $a_0 + a_1sqrt{alpha} + dots + a_nsqrt{alpha}^n,$ where the $a_iin K.$ You can always assume that $n < 1,$ as $sqrt{alpha}^2 = alphain K.$ If you write this out rigorously, this will show that ${1,sqrt{alpha}}$ is a basis in the case when $sqrt{alpha}notin K.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:40
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
$begingroup$
Either $a$ or $b$ is zero because $2absqrt{alpha} = 0,$ and $2$ and $sqrt{alpha}$ are both nonzero. $2neq 0$ because the characteristic is not $2,$ and $sqrt{alpha}neq 0$ because $alphain K^times$ (if $sqrt{alpha} = 0,$ then $alpha = sqrt{alpha}^2 = 0^2 = 0$). If you have a product of elements equal to $0$ in a field, you know that at least one of the elements must be $0$ (if none of them were $0,$ you could multiply both sides by their inverses and get the contradiction $1 = 0$).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 18:46
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
There appear to be some typos in your post, so if you update your question I think that this answer will no longer be valid.
Let $K=mathbb{Q}$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. Take $alpha=pi$ and $beta=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}$. Note that $2(beta-1)^{-1}+1=alpha$, so that $K(alpha)=K(beta)$.
However, there cannot be a $gammain K^times$ such that $alpha=gamma^2beta$ or we would have
$$
pi=gamma^2frac{pi+1}{pi-1} quad Rightarrow quad pi^2-(gamma^2+1)pi-gamma^2=0
$$
which is a contradiction, since $pi$ is transcendental over $mathbb{Q}$.
I have assumed some of the corrections left as a comment on your post, except that $[E:K]=2$. So if you meant that in addition to the fact that $K$ is not characteristic $2$ this answer obviously fails.
EDIT: In fact, I don't even think that the criterion of $[E:K]=2$ is enough to salvage this question. Consider $K=mathbb{Q}(pi^2)$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. This is a degree $2$ extension, and if all other choices are made as above then you still end up with a contradiction (though the final contradiction takes a bit more effort to show that it is a nonzero polynomial).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
$begingroup$
Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
There appear to be some typos in your post, so if you update your question I think that this answer will no longer be valid.
Let $K=mathbb{Q}$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. Take $alpha=pi$ and $beta=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}$. Note that $2(beta-1)^{-1}+1=alpha$, so that $K(alpha)=K(beta)$.
However, there cannot be a $gammain K^times$ such that $alpha=gamma^2beta$ or we would have
$$
pi=gamma^2frac{pi+1}{pi-1} quad Rightarrow quad pi^2-(gamma^2+1)pi-gamma^2=0
$$
which is a contradiction, since $pi$ is transcendental over $mathbb{Q}$.
I have assumed some of the corrections left as a comment on your post, except that $[E:K]=2$. So if you meant that in addition to the fact that $K$ is not characteristic $2$ this answer obviously fails.
EDIT: In fact, I don't even think that the criterion of $[E:K]=2$ is enough to salvage this question. Consider $K=mathbb{Q}(pi^2)$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. This is a degree $2$ extension, and if all other choices are made as above then you still end up with a contradiction (though the final contradiction takes a bit more effort to show that it is a nonzero polynomial).
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
$begingroup$
Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
There appear to be some typos in your post, so if you update your question I think that this answer will no longer be valid.
Let $K=mathbb{Q}$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. Take $alpha=pi$ and $beta=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}$. Note that $2(beta-1)^{-1}+1=alpha$, so that $K(alpha)=K(beta)$.
However, there cannot be a $gammain K^times$ such that $alpha=gamma^2beta$ or we would have
$$
pi=gamma^2frac{pi+1}{pi-1} quad Rightarrow quad pi^2-(gamma^2+1)pi-gamma^2=0
$$
which is a contradiction, since $pi$ is transcendental over $mathbb{Q}$.
I have assumed some of the corrections left as a comment on your post, except that $[E:K]=2$. So if you meant that in addition to the fact that $K$ is not characteristic $2$ this answer obviously fails.
EDIT: In fact, I don't even think that the criterion of $[E:K]=2$ is enough to salvage this question. Consider $K=mathbb{Q}(pi^2)$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. This is a degree $2$ extension, and if all other choices are made as above then you still end up with a contradiction (though the final contradiction takes a bit more effort to show that it is a nonzero polynomial).
$endgroup$
There appear to be some typos in your post, so if you update your question I think that this answer will no longer be valid.
Let $K=mathbb{Q}$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. Take $alpha=pi$ and $beta=frac{pi+1}{pi-1}$. Note that $2(beta-1)^{-1}+1=alpha$, so that $K(alpha)=K(beta)$.
However, there cannot be a $gammain K^times$ such that $alpha=gamma^2beta$ or we would have
$$
pi=gamma^2frac{pi+1}{pi-1} quad Rightarrow quad pi^2-(gamma^2+1)pi-gamma^2=0
$$
which is a contradiction, since $pi$ is transcendental over $mathbb{Q}$.
I have assumed some of the corrections left as a comment on your post, except that $[E:K]=2$. So if you meant that in addition to the fact that $K$ is not characteristic $2$ this answer obviously fails.
EDIT: In fact, I don't even think that the criterion of $[E:K]=2$ is enough to salvage this question. Consider $K=mathbb{Q}(pi^2)$ and $E=mathbb{Q}(pi)$. This is a degree $2$ extension, and if all other choices are made as above then you still end up with a contradiction (though the final contradiction takes a bit more effort to show that it is a nonzero polynomial).
edited Dec 26 '18 at 18:36
answered Dec 26 '18 at 15:48
IAmTheGuyIAmTheGuy
312
312
$begingroup$
Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
$begingroup$
Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
|
show 5 more comments
$begingroup$
Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
$begingroup$
Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
$begingroup$
Thank you for your help and I am really sorry... I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:24
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling You still intend for $alpha$ and $beta$ to be in $K^times$ and not $Esetminus K$?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:26
$begingroup$
Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
Yes, that is correct. Both are in $K^{times}$.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
@KingDingeling Final question then; what is the purpose of $E$ in this question?
$endgroup$
– IAmTheGuy
Dec 26 '18 at 17:28
$begingroup$
I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
$begingroup$
I am not sure as well... I think it's just to tell us that $K$ has a field extension, but I am not sure here.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:30
|
show 5 more comments
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$begingroup$
If $alphain K^times,$ then $K(alpha) = K.$ Did you mean that $alpha,betain E^timessetminus K^times$ and to also assume that $[E : K] = 2$?
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Dec 26 '18 at 15:35
$begingroup$
I forgot to put on the $sqrt{alpha}$ and $sqrt{beta}$. I'm sorry.
$endgroup$
– KingDingeling
Dec 26 '18 at 17:23