Sole minimal element: Why not also the minimum?
up vote
14
down vote
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A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.
The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.
Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.
The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:

It's easy to see that:
- $emptyset$ is a minimal element
- $emptyset$ is the minimum
Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:
- ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements
- there is no minimum
(1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.
(2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.
But I read that (2) is false. Why?
elementary-set-theory relations order-theory
add a comment |
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.
The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.
Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.
The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:

It's easy to see that:
- $emptyset$ is a minimal element
- $emptyset$ is the minimum
Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:
- ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements
- there is no minimum
(1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.
(2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.
But I read that (2) is false. Why?
elementary-set-theory relations order-theory
add a comment |
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
up vote
14
down vote
favorite
A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.
The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.
Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.
The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:

It's easy to see that:
- $emptyset$ is a minimal element
- $emptyset$ is the minimum
Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:
- ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements
- there is no minimum
(1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.
(2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.
But I read that (2) is false. Why?
elementary-set-theory relations order-theory
A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.
The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.
Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.
The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:

It's easy to see that:
- $emptyset$ is a minimal element
- $emptyset$ is the minimum
Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:
- ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements
- there is no minimum
(1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.
(2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.
But I read that (2) is false. Why?
elementary-set-theory relations order-theory
elementary-set-theory relations order-theory
edited Dec 2 '14 at 1:23
asked Dec 2 '14 at 0:13
caw
122211
122211
add a comment |
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
1
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
add a comment |
up vote
18
down vote
The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.

5
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Generally, we could say:
If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).
which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.
However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.
A weaker but also sufficient condition would be
If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.
which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
2
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
1
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
1
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
add a comment |
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
up vote
13
down vote
accepted
A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.
A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.
answered Dec 2 '14 at 0:22
Ross Millikan
289k23195367
289k23195367
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
1
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
add a comment |
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
1
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:16
1
1
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
$c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 3:39
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:59
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
– Ross Millikan
Dec 2 '14 at 4:15
add a comment |
up vote
18
down vote
The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.

5
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
add a comment |
up vote
18
down vote
The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.

5
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
add a comment |
up vote
18
down vote
up vote
18
down vote
The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.

The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.

edited Mar 16 '15 at 15:05
answered Dec 2 '14 at 0:17
Git Gud
28.6k104899
28.6k104899
5
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
add a comment |
5
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
5
5
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
– Robert Israel
Dec 2 '14 at 0:21
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:14
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
@MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
– Git Gud
Dec 2 '14 at 15:08
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Generally, we could say:
If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).
which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.
However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.
A weaker but also sufficient condition would be
If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.
which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
2
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
Generally, we could say:
If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).
which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.
However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.
A weaker but also sufficient condition would be
If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.
which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
2
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
add a comment |
up vote
4
down vote
up vote
4
down vote
Generally, we could say:
If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).
which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.
However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.
A weaker but also sufficient condition would be
If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.
which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.
Generally, we could say:
If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).
which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.
However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.
A weaker but also sufficient condition would be
If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.
which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.
edited Dec 2 '14 at 0:47
answered Dec 2 '14 at 0:40
Milo Brandt
39k475137
39k475137
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
2
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
add a comment |
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
2
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
– caw
Dec 2 '14 at 3:17
2
2
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
– Milo Brandt
Dec 2 '14 at 3:24
add a comment |
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