Sole minimal element: Why not also the minimum?











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A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.



The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.





Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.



The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:



enter image description here



It's easy to see that:




  • $emptyset$ is a minimal element

  • $emptyset$ is the minimum


Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:




  • ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements

  • there is no minimum


(1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.



(2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.



But I read that (2) is false. Why?










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    up vote
    14
    down vote

    favorite
    5












    A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.



    The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.





    Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.



    The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:



    enter image description here



    It's easy to see that:




    • $emptyset$ is a minimal element

    • $emptyset$ is the minimum


    Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:




    • ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements

    • there is no minimum


    (1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.



    (2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.



    But I read that (2) is false. Why?










    share|cite|improve this question


























      up vote
      14
      down vote

      favorite
      5









      up vote
      14
      down vote

      favorite
      5






      5





      A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.



      The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.





      Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.



      The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:



      enter image description here



      It's easy to see that:




      • $emptyset$ is a minimal element

      • $emptyset$ is the minimum


      Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:




      • ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements

      • there is no minimum


      (1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.



      (2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.



      But I read that (2) is false. Why?










      share|cite|improve this question















      A minimal element (any number thereof) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is not greater than any other element in $S$.



      The minimum (at most one) of a partially ordered set $S$ is an element that is less than or equal to any other element of $S$.





      Let's consider the power set $mathcal P ({x,y,z})$ together with the binary relation $subseteq$.



      The Hasse diagram shows what element(s) we're looking for:



      enter image description here



      It's easy to see that:




      • $emptyset$ is a minimal element

      • $emptyset$ is the minimum


      Now if we remove $emptyset$ and consider $mathcal P ({x,y,z})setminus emptyset$ instead, we get the following:




      • ${x}$, ${y}$ and ${z}$ are minimal elements

      • there is no minimum


      (1) We know that a minimum is unique and it is always the only minimal element.



      (2) And from the example above, it seems that, if a sole minimal element exists, it is always the minimum.



      But I read that (2) is false. Why?







      elementary-set-theory relations order-theory






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      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Dec 2 '14 at 1:23

























      asked Dec 2 '14 at 0:13









      caw

      122211




      122211






















          3 Answers
          3






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          up vote
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          down vote



          accepted










          A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:16






          • 1




            $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:39










          • Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:59










          • In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 4:15




















          up vote
          18
          down vote













          The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.



                                          Hasse diagram






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 5




            The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
            – Robert Israel
            Dec 2 '14 at 0:21










          • Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:14










          • @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
            – Git Gud
            Dec 2 '14 at 15:08


















          up vote
          4
          down vote













          Generally, we could say:




          If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).




          which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.



          However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.



          A weaker but also sufficient condition would be




          If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.




          which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:17






          • 2




            Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
            – Milo Brandt
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:24













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          3 Answers
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          active

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          active

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          up vote
          13
          down vote



          accepted










          A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:16






          • 1




            $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:39










          • Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:59










          • In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 4:15

















          up vote
          13
          down vote



          accepted










          A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.






          share|cite|improve this answer





















          • Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:16






          • 1




            $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:39










          • Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:59










          • In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 4:15















          up vote
          13
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          13
          down vote



          accepted






          A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.






          share|cite|improve this answer












          A counterexample to the statement is $Bbb Z cup {c}$, where $c$ is not comparable to any integer. $c$ is then a minimal element, but there is no minimum because a minimum must be comparable to everything else.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Dec 2 '14 at 0:22









          Ross Millikan

          289k23195367




          289k23195367












          • Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:16






          • 1




            $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:39










          • Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:59










          • In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 4:15




















          • Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:16






          • 1




            $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:39










          • Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:59










          • In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
            – Ross Millikan
            Dec 2 '14 at 4:15


















          Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:16




          Thank you! So an element that is not comparable (in any direction) is one example where the statement is proved wrong? How is $c$ minimal, however?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:16




          1




          1




          $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
          – Ross Millikan
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:39




          $c$ is minimal because there is no element that is less than $c$. That is the definition of minimal. The challenge is then to make sure there is no other minimal element, which is why we need an infinite descending chain. The statement is true in finite sets, because we can't do that.
          – Ross Millikan
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:39












          Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:59




          Do I even need the $c$ as a non-comparable element then? I mean, if we don't have a minimum in infinite sets like $mathbb{Z}$, this is the sufficient condition for the statement being wrong, isn't it?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:59












          In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
          – Ross Millikan
          Dec 2 '14 at 4:15






          In $Bbb Z$ you don't have any minimal element, so it is not a counterexample to (only minimial element) $implies$ (minimum element).
          – Ross Millikan
          Dec 2 '14 at 4:15












          up vote
          18
          down vote













          The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.



                                          Hasse diagram






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 5




            The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
            – Robert Israel
            Dec 2 '14 at 0:21










          • Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:14










          • @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
            – Git Gud
            Dec 2 '14 at 15:08















          up vote
          18
          down vote













          The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.



                                          Hasse diagram






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 5




            The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
            – Robert Israel
            Dec 2 '14 at 0:21










          • Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:14










          • @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
            – Git Gud
            Dec 2 '14 at 15:08













          up vote
          18
          down vote










          up vote
          18
          down vote









          The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.



                                          Hasse diagram






          share|cite|improve this answer














          The poset suggested by the hasse diagram below has only one minimal element.



                                          Hasse diagram







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Mar 16 '15 at 15:05

























          answered Dec 2 '14 at 0:17









          Git Gud

          28.6k104899




          28.6k104899








          • 5




            The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
            – Robert Israel
            Dec 2 '14 at 0:21










          • Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:14










          • @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
            – Git Gud
            Dec 2 '14 at 15:08














          • 5




            The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
            – Robert Israel
            Dec 2 '14 at 0:21










          • Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:14










          • @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
            – Git Gud
            Dec 2 '14 at 15:08








          5




          5




          The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
          – Robert Israel
          Dec 2 '14 at 0:21




          The point being that there can be a unique minimal element that is not a minimum.
          – Robert Israel
          Dec 2 '14 at 0:21












          Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:14




          Thanks! Is this to shown an infinite descending chain?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:14












          @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
          – Git Gud
          Dec 2 '14 at 15:08




          @MarcoW. Yes, that is my intent.
          – Git Gud
          Dec 2 '14 at 15:08










          up vote
          4
          down vote













          Generally, we could say:




          If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).




          which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.



          However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.



          A weaker but also sufficient condition would be




          If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.




          which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:17






          • 2




            Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
            – Milo Brandt
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:24

















          up vote
          4
          down vote













          Generally, we could say:




          If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).




          which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.



          However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.



          A weaker but also sufficient condition would be




          If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.




          which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer























          • Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:17






          • 2




            Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
            – Milo Brandt
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:24















          up vote
          4
          down vote










          up vote
          4
          down vote









          Generally, we could say:




          If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).




          which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.



          However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.



          A weaker but also sufficient condition would be




          If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.




          which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          Generally, we could say:




          If there is a unique minimal element, and every non-empty subset has a minimal element, then there is a minimum (and it equals the unique minimal element).




          which is easily proven - suppose that in the poset $(S,leq)$ our unique minimal element is $m$ and we consider $S'subseteq S$ defined by ${sin S: mnotleq s$} - so the elements incomparable with $m$. This cannot have a minimal element $m'$, since if it did, $m'$ would clearly be minimal in $(S,leq)$ and distinct from $m$. However, this, in conjunction with the condition that every non-empty subset must have a minimal element implies that, since $S'$ has no minimal element, it empty, and thus $m$ is comparable with everything and hence a minimum.



          However, this is a very strong condition - it is generally referred to as well-foundedness and means that no infinite descending chains may exist in the poset. The other answers provide explicit examples where there is an infinite descending chain, which precludes the possibility of a minimum element while having no minimal elements, which is in some way joined with a new minimal element.



          A weaker but also sufficient condition would be




          If there is a unique minimal element, and, for every subset $S'subseteq S$, there is an element $m$ such that there is no $s'in S$ with $s'<m$ and there exists an element $s'in S$ such that $mleq s'$, then $S$ has a minimum element.




          which at least applies to posets like the typical order on $[0,infty)$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Dec 2 '14 at 0:47

























          answered Dec 2 '14 at 0:40









          Milo Brandt

          39k475137




          39k475137












          • Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:17






          • 2




            Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
            – Milo Brandt
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:24




















          • Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
            – caw
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:17






          • 2




            Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
            – Milo Brandt
            Dec 2 '14 at 3:24


















          Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:17




          Thanks! Are infinite descending chains and non-comparable elements the only exceptions that prevent every subset from having a minimal element?
          – caw
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:17




          2




          2




          Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
          – Milo Brandt
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:24






          Just infinite chains, actually; in particular, suppose you want to find a minimal element of $S'$. Choose some $s_0in S'$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_1< s_0$. Is it minimal? No? Choose some $s_2<s_1<s_0$ - and so on. Either you construct an infinite descending chain, or you reach a minimal $s_i$. So having no infinite descending chains implies having a minimal element (and vice versa, since an infinite descending chain has no minimal element)
          – Milo Brandt
          Dec 2 '14 at 3:24




















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