Check whether $G$ is group or not












5












$begingroup$



Let $G={0,1,2}$ define $*$ on $G$ such that $a*b=|a-b|$. Check if $G$ is a group




Edit : As @egreg correctly pointed out if you draw the Cayley table then one can directly see it is not a group, I was making a mistake in drawing up cayley table.



My solution :
I can prove that $G$ is closed, has an identity ($0$), has an inverse (each element is inverse of itself).



What I am not sure is whether the group is associative under this binary operation, at the face of it $|a-|b-c||neq||a-b|-c||$ but if we check all possibilities then both do come out to be equal if $a,b,c in G$.



Any hint/help will be appreciated










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Peter: I suspect at the level of this OP (reputation=1), that the statement that a group of size $3$ must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_3$ will be of little help.
    $endgroup$
    – David G. Stork
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:45






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Associativity is always the hardest property to verify but the good news is you don't have very many to check. You need to verify that $a*(b*c)=(a*b)*c$ so each letter has 3 choices $0,1,2$ so you'd have 27 things to check there if you manually check each one :)
    $endgroup$
    – N8tron
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:47






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You only need to find one combination of values for $a,b$ and $c$ for which associativity fails and you can infer that they cannot all be the same number and $0$ doesn't really change the expression so try combinations of $1$ and $2$.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You may also use the fact that in a group each row/column of the Cayley table must be a permutation of the elements of $G$.
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Caranti
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    OK, an easier way to look if we CAN have a group : Does every element appear in every row and in every column ? If not, we cannot have a group.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:49
















5












$begingroup$



Let $G={0,1,2}$ define $*$ on $G$ such that $a*b=|a-b|$. Check if $G$ is a group




Edit : As @egreg correctly pointed out if you draw the Cayley table then one can directly see it is not a group, I was making a mistake in drawing up cayley table.



My solution :
I can prove that $G$ is closed, has an identity ($0$), has an inverse (each element is inverse of itself).



What I am not sure is whether the group is associative under this binary operation, at the face of it $|a-|b-c||neq||a-b|-c||$ but if we check all possibilities then both do come out to be equal if $a,b,c in G$.



Any hint/help will be appreciated










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Peter: I suspect at the level of this OP (reputation=1), that the statement that a group of size $3$ must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_3$ will be of little help.
    $endgroup$
    – David G. Stork
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:45






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Associativity is always the hardest property to verify but the good news is you don't have very many to check. You need to verify that $a*(b*c)=(a*b)*c$ so each letter has 3 choices $0,1,2$ so you'd have 27 things to check there if you manually check each one :)
    $endgroup$
    – N8tron
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:47






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You only need to find one combination of values for $a,b$ and $c$ for which associativity fails and you can infer that they cannot all be the same number and $0$ doesn't really change the expression so try combinations of $1$ and $2$.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You may also use the fact that in a group each row/column of the Cayley table must be a permutation of the elements of $G$.
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Caranti
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    OK, an easier way to look if we CAN have a group : Does every element appear in every row and in every column ? If not, we cannot have a group.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:49














5












5








5





$begingroup$



Let $G={0,1,2}$ define $*$ on $G$ such that $a*b=|a-b|$. Check if $G$ is a group




Edit : As @egreg correctly pointed out if you draw the Cayley table then one can directly see it is not a group, I was making a mistake in drawing up cayley table.



My solution :
I can prove that $G$ is closed, has an identity ($0$), has an inverse (each element is inverse of itself).



What I am not sure is whether the group is associative under this binary operation, at the face of it $|a-|b-c||neq||a-b|-c||$ but if we check all possibilities then both do come out to be equal if $a,b,c in G$.



Any hint/help will be appreciated










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$





Let $G={0,1,2}$ define $*$ on $G$ such that $a*b=|a-b|$. Check if $G$ is a group




Edit : As @egreg correctly pointed out if you draw the Cayley table then one can directly see it is not a group, I was making a mistake in drawing up cayley table.



My solution :
I can prove that $G$ is closed, has an identity ($0$), has an inverse (each element is inverse of itself).



What I am not sure is whether the group is associative under this binary operation, at the face of it $|a-|b-c||neq||a-b|-c||$ but if we check all possibilities then both do come out to be equal if $a,b,c in G$.



Any hint/help will be appreciated







abstract-algebra group-theory binary-operations






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Jan 7 at 16:27









José Carlos Santos

157k22126227




157k22126227










asked Jun 13 '18 at 12:41









kira0705kira0705

995




995








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Peter: I suspect at the level of this OP (reputation=1), that the statement that a group of size $3$ must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_3$ will be of little help.
    $endgroup$
    – David G. Stork
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:45






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Associativity is always the hardest property to verify but the good news is you don't have very many to check. You need to verify that $a*(b*c)=(a*b)*c$ so each letter has 3 choices $0,1,2$ so you'd have 27 things to check there if you manually check each one :)
    $endgroup$
    – N8tron
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:47






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You only need to find one combination of values for $a,b$ and $c$ for which associativity fails and you can infer that they cannot all be the same number and $0$ doesn't really change the expression so try combinations of $1$ and $2$.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You may also use the fact that in a group each row/column of the Cayley table must be a permutation of the elements of $G$.
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Caranti
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    OK, an easier way to look if we CAN have a group : Does every element appear in every row and in every column ? If not, we cannot have a group.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:49














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Peter: I suspect at the level of this OP (reputation=1), that the statement that a group of size $3$ must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_3$ will be of little help.
    $endgroup$
    – David G. Stork
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:45






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Associativity is always the hardest property to verify but the good news is you don't have very many to check. You need to verify that $a*(b*c)=(a*b)*c$ so each letter has 3 choices $0,1,2$ so you'd have 27 things to check there if you manually check each one :)
    $endgroup$
    – N8tron
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:47






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You only need to find one combination of values for $a,b$ and $c$ for which associativity fails and you can infer that they cannot all be the same number and $0$ doesn't really change the expression so try combinations of $1$ and $2$.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    You may also use the fact that in a group each row/column of the Cayley table must be a permutation of the elements of $G$.
    $endgroup$
    – Andreas Caranti
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:48






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    OK, an easier way to look if we CAN have a group : Does every element appear in every row and in every column ? If not, we cannot have a group.
    $endgroup$
    – Peter
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:49








2




2




$begingroup$
@Peter: I suspect at the level of this OP (reputation=1), that the statement that a group of size $3$ must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_3$ will be of little help.
$endgroup$
– David G. Stork
Jun 13 '18 at 12:45




$begingroup$
@Peter: I suspect at the level of this OP (reputation=1), that the statement that a group of size $3$ must be isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_3$ will be of little help.
$endgroup$
– David G. Stork
Jun 13 '18 at 12:45




1




1




$begingroup$
Associativity is always the hardest property to verify but the good news is you don't have very many to check. You need to verify that $a*(b*c)=(a*b)*c$ so each letter has 3 choices $0,1,2$ so you'd have 27 things to check there if you manually check each one :)
$endgroup$
– N8tron
Jun 13 '18 at 12:47




$begingroup$
Associativity is always the hardest property to verify but the good news is you don't have very many to check. You need to verify that $a*(b*c)=(a*b)*c$ so each letter has 3 choices $0,1,2$ so you'd have 27 things to check there if you manually check each one :)
$endgroup$
– N8tron
Jun 13 '18 at 12:47




2




2




$begingroup$
You only need to find one combination of values for $a,b$ and $c$ for which associativity fails and you can infer that they cannot all be the same number and $0$ doesn't really change the expression so try combinations of $1$ and $2$.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
Jun 13 '18 at 12:48




$begingroup$
You only need to find one combination of values for $a,b$ and $c$ for which associativity fails and you can infer that they cannot all be the same number and $0$ doesn't really change the expression so try combinations of $1$ and $2$.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
Jun 13 '18 at 12:48




2




2




$begingroup$
You may also use the fact that in a group each row/column of the Cayley table must be a permutation of the elements of $G$.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Jun 13 '18 at 12:48




$begingroup$
You may also use the fact that in a group each row/column of the Cayley table must be a permutation of the elements of $G$.
$endgroup$
– Andreas Caranti
Jun 13 '18 at 12:48




2




2




$begingroup$
OK, an easier way to look if we CAN have a group : Does every element appear in every row and in every column ? If not, we cannot have a group.
$endgroup$
– Peter
Jun 13 '18 at 12:49




$begingroup$
OK, an easier way to look if we CAN have a group : Does every element appear in every row and in every column ? If not, we cannot have a group.
$endgroup$
– Peter
Jun 13 '18 at 12:49










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

The Cayley table (that also shows closure, identity and inverses) is
begin{array}{c|ccc}
* & 0 & 1 & 2 \
hline
0 & 0 & 1 & 2 \
1 & 1 & 0 & 1\
2 & 2 & 1 & 0
end{array}
Since in the second row the element $1$ appears twice, the set is not a group.



In a group, from $xy=xz$ one deduces $y=z$; here, instead, $1*0=1*2$, but $0ne2$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 14:58






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
    $endgroup$
    – egreg
    Jun 13 '18 at 15:44



















9












$begingroup$

The operation $*$ is not associative, since:begin{align}bigl||2-1|-1bigr|&=0\&neq2\&=bigl|2-|1-1|bigr|.end{align}Therefore, $(G,*)$ is not a group.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:52










  • $begingroup$
    thanks it perfectly answers my query !
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:57











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2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4












$begingroup$

The Cayley table (that also shows closure, identity and inverses) is
begin{array}{c|ccc}
* & 0 & 1 & 2 \
hline
0 & 0 & 1 & 2 \
1 & 1 & 0 & 1\
2 & 2 & 1 & 0
end{array}
Since in the second row the element $1$ appears twice, the set is not a group.



In a group, from $xy=xz$ one deduces $y=z$; here, instead, $1*0=1*2$, but $0ne2$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 14:58






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
    $endgroup$
    – egreg
    Jun 13 '18 at 15:44
















4












$begingroup$

The Cayley table (that also shows closure, identity and inverses) is
begin{array}{c|ccc}
* & 0 & 1 & 2 \
hline
0 & 0 & 1 & 2 \
1 & 1 & 0 & 1\
2 & 2 & 1 & 0
end{array}
Since in the second row the element $1$ appears twice, the set is not a group.



In a group, from $xy=xz$ one deduces $y=z$; here, instead, $1*0=1*2$, but $0ne2$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 14:58






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
    $endgroup$
    – egreg
    Jun 13 '18 at 15:44














4












4








4





$begingroup$

The Cayley table (that also shows closure, identity and inverses) is
begin{array}{c|ccc}
* & 0 & 1 & 2 \
hline
0 & 0 & 1 & 2 \
1 & 1 & 0 & 1\
2 & 2 & 1 & 0
end{array}
Since in the second row the element $1$ appears twice, the set is not a group.



In a group, from $xy=xz$ one deduces $y=z$; here, instead, $1*0=1*2$, but $0ne2$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



The Cayley table (that also shows closure, identity and inverses) is
begin{array}{c|ccc}
* & 0 & 1 & 2 \
hline
0 & 0 & 1 & 2 \
1 & 1 & 0 & 1\
2 & 2 & 1 & 0
end{array}
Since in the second row the element $1$ appears twice, the set is not a group.



In a group, from $xy=xz$ one deduces $y=z$; here, instead, $1*0=1*2$, but $0ne2$.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Jun 13 '18 at 14:20









egregegreg

181k1485202




181k1485202












  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 14:58






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
    $endgroup$
    – egreg
    Jun 13 '18 at 15:44


















  • $begingroup$
    Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 14:58






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
    $endgroup$
    – egreg
    Jun 13 '18 at 15:44
















$begingroup$
Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
$endgroup$
– kira0705
Jun 13 '18 at 14:58




$begingroup$
Thanks! I feel totally stupid , I even drew the cayley table wrong ! I will take care of such mistakes in future before posting any question , sorry for wasting your time .
$endgroup$
– kira0705
Jun 13 '18 at 14:58




2




2




$begingroup$
@kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
$endgroup$
– egreg
Jun 13 '18 at 15:44




$begingroup$
@kira0705 Don't worry: staring at some computation without realizing the error happens to everybody.
$endgroup$
– egreg
Jun 13 '18 at 15:44











9












$begingroup$

The operation $*$ is not associative, since:begin{align}bigl||2-1|-1bigr|&=0\&neq2\&=bigl|2-|1-1|bigr|.end{align}Therefore, $(G,*)$ is not a group.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:52










  • $begingroup$
    thanks it perfectly answers my query !
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:57
















9












$begingroup$

The operation $*$ is not associative, since:begin{align}bigl||2-1|-1bigr|&=0\&neq2\&=bigl|2-|1-1|bigr|.end{align}Therefore, $(G,*)$ is not a group.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:52










  • $begingroup$
    thanks it perfectly answers my query !
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:57














9












9








9





$begingroup$

The operation $*$ is not associative, since:begin{align}bigl||2-1|-1bigr|&=0\&neq2\&=bigl|2-|1-1|bigr|.end{align}Therefore, $(G,*)$ is not a group.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



The operation $*$ is not associative, since:begin{align}bigl||2-1|-1bigr|&=0\&neq2\&=bigl|2-|1-1|bigr|.end{align}Therefore, $(G,*)$ is not a group.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Aug 13 '18 at 21:48

























answered Jun 13 '18 at 12:48









José Carlos SantosJosé Carlos Santos

157k22126227




157k22126227








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:52










  • $begingroup$
    thanks it perfectly answers my query !
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:57














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
    $endgroup$
    – CyclotomicField
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:52










  • $begingroup$
    thanks it perfectly answers my query !
    $endgroup$
    – kira0705
    Jun 13 '18 at 12:57








2




2




$begingroup$
Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
Jun 13 '18 at 12:52




$begingroup$
Just wanted to add that associativity does work when $a=b=c$ or when any of the values is zero so to find a counter-example or prove associativity by brute force relatively few cases would need to be checked.
$endgroup$
– CyclotomicField
Jun 13 '18 at 12:52












$begingroup$
thanks it perfectly answers my query !
$endgroup$
– kira0705
Jun 13 '18 at 12:57




$begingroup$
thanks it perfectly answers my query !
$endgroup$
– kira0705
Jun 13 '18 at 12:57


















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