How random is my deck of cards?












6












$begingroup$


I play a few card games, and I thought it would be fun to write a card shuffling program, to see how many shuffles it takes to randomize the deck.



The algorithm is:




  1. Cut the deck in the middle ± random offset.

  2. while one hand is still full, place a small but random number of cards into the second hand in the front/back/both.

  3. repeat until random.


The question is, how do I check for randomness? I've considered that this might be a 52-spin Ising model, and I can make some function 'cost energy's when they are ordered (ie ace of clubs followed by two of clubs 'cost' more than being next to say the seven of hearts) but this might be overkill...



Is there a mathematical test for randomness I could use here, to check the order of my cards?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    By the way Donald Knuth's TAOCP has some extended material on shuffling decks and analysis thereof. Just thought you might be interested.
    $endgroup$
    – Kaz
    Oct 21 '12 at 2:05
















6












$begingroup$


I play a few card games, and I thought it would be fun to write a card shuffling program, to see how many shuffles it takes to randomize the deck.



The algorithm is:




  1. Cut the deck in the middle ± random offset.

  2. while one hand is still full, place a small but random number of cards into the second hand in the front/back/both.

  3. repeat until random.


The question is, how do I check for randomness? I've considered that this might be a 52-spin Ising model, and I can make some function 'cost energy's when they are ordered (ie ace of clubs followed by two of clubs 'cost' more than being next to say the seven of hearts) but this might be overkill...



Is there a mathematical test for randomness I could use here, to check the order of my cards?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    By the way Donald Knuth's TAOCP has some extended material on shuffling decks and analysis thereof. Just thought you might be interested.
    $endgroup$
    – Kaz
    Oct 21 '12 at 2:05














6












6








6


1



$begingroup$


I play a few card games, and I thought it would be fun to write a card shuffling program, to see how many shuffles it takes to randomize the deck.



The algorithm is:




  1. Cut the deck in the middle ± random offset.

  2. while one hand is still full, place a small but random number of cards into the second hand in the front/back/both.

  3. repeat until random.


The question is, how do I check for randomness? I've considered that this might be a 52-spin Ising model, and I can make some function 'cost energy's when they are ordered (ie ace of clubs followed by two of clubs 'cost' more than being next to say the seven of hearts) but this might be overkill...



Is there a mathematical test for randomness I could use here, to check the order of my cards?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




I play a few card games, and I thought it would be fun to write a card shuffling program, to see how many shuffles it takes to randomize the deck.



The algorithm is:




  1. Cut the deck in the middle ± random offset.

  2. while one hand is still full, place a small but random number of cards into the second hand in the front/back/both.

  3. repeat until random.


The question is, how do I check for randomness? I've considered that this might be a 52-spin Ising model, and I can make some function 'cost energy's when they are ordered (ie ace of clubs followed by two of clubs 'cost' more than being next to say the seven of hearts) but this might be overkill...



Is there a mathematical test for randomness I could use here, to check the order of my cards?







random






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Oct 20 '12 at 21:57









PureferretPureferret

5001828




5001828








  • 2




    $begingroup$
    By the way Donald Knuth's TAOCP has some extended material on shuffling decks and analysis thereof. Just thought you might be interested.
    $endgroup$
    – Kaz
    Oct 21 '12 at 2:05














  • 2




    $begingroup$
    By the way Donald Knuth's TAOCP has some extended material on shuffling decks and analysis thereof. Just thought you might be interested.
    $endgroup$
    – Kaz
    Oct 21 '12 at 2:05








2




2




$begingroup$
By the way Donald Knuth's TAOCP has some extended material on shuffling decks and analysis thereof. Just thought you might be interested.
$endgroup$
– Kaz
Oct 21 '12 at 2:05




$begingroup$
By the way Donald Knuth's TAOCP has some extended material on shuffling decks and analysis thereof. Just thought you might be interested.
$endgroup$
– Kaz
Oct 21 '12 at 2:05










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















15












$begingroup$

Randomness is not a property of a deck, it is a property of a probability distribution over decks. xkcd said it best:



enter image description here



This is not the algorithm you want. What you actually want to check is whether your algorithm, after $n$ iterations, produces a distribution over decks that is approximately uniform. Fortunately, someone has already done the work for you: Persi Diaconis showed that it takes about $7$ riffle shuffles.



If you don't want to rely on that result, just run your algorithm lots of times and keep track of which decks show up depending on how many times in a row you run it. (Probably you shouldn't keep track of decks themselves but rather the first $k$ cards in them for some reasonable $k$.)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 2




    $begingroup$
    To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
    $endgroup$
    – Qiaochu Yuan
    Oct 20 '12 at 22:16








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
    $endgroup$
    – Qiaochu Yuan
    Oct 20 '12 at 22:19










  • $begingroup$
    Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
    $endgroup$
    – Pureferret
    Oct 21 '12 at 7:00





















3












$begingroup$

If you do a few thousand or tens of thousands of runs of your algorithm, you can look at the distribution of where the first (and each other) card ends up. It should be reasonably uniform, and the chi-square test can tell you if the unevenness that you see is to be expected. I would also check how far apart cards that started out together finish. It looks like your algorithm might not split them apart soon enough.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    Valid or useful or interesting notions of "random-ness" need more than basic probability notions, since the probability of 100 "heads" in flipping a fair coin has the same probability as any other specific sequence of outcomes, but is arguably implausible as a "random" outcome.



    To my mind, the "Kolmogorov-Solomonoff-Chaitin" notion of "complexity" is the apt notion. This is discussed wonderfully and at length in the first part of Li-Vitanyi's book on the subject.



    A crude approximation of the idea is that a "thing" is "random" if it admits no simpler description than itself (!). Yes, of course, this depends on the language/descriptive apparatus, but has provable sense when suitably qualified.



    Given that most card games refer to discernible "patterns" (things with compressible descriptions), a "random" hand would be one lacking two-of-a-kind, and so on. A "random" distribution in a deck would, in particular, have no more pattern in it than might be "expected".



    The question of whether there is a notion of "too-violent-to-be-random" non-pattern-forming in a given context seems to be ambiguous: while long runs of all heads or all tails are suspicious, lack of them is also suspicious. This kind of example suggests that a configuration of a deck of cards to that no one has a playable hand might also be suspicious... depending on the context.



    The operationally significant question of whether or not an innocent-seeming "mixing" can produce "randomness" with relatively few iterations is slightly different. However, from the viewpoint of "complexity", surely the answer is "no", since the hands-of-cards which arise in this way immediately admit a much simpler description than themselves. Nevertheless, or perhaps because of this observation, we can decide to declare a merely relative notion of randomness for a deck of cards, in terms of a small proper subset of "genuine" tests of "randomness/compressibility".



    Of course, if the only "deals" of hands of cards that were allowed were "random" in any strong sense, the probability would be very low that anyone would have a playable hand...






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$













      Your Answer





      StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
      return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
      StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
      StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
      });
      });
      }, "mathjax-editing");

      StackExchange.ready(function() {
      var channelOptions = {
      tags: "".split(" "),
      id: "69"
      };
      initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

      StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
      // Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
      if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
      StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
      createEditor();
      });
      }
      else {
      createEditor();
      }
      });

      function createEditor() {
      StackExchange.prepareEditor({
      heartbeatType: 'answer',
      autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
      convertImagesToLinks: true,
      noModals: true,
      showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
      reputationToPostImages: 10,
      bindNavPrevention: true,
      postfix: "",
      imageUploader: {
      brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
      contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
      allowUrls: true
      },
      noCode: true, onDemand: true,
      discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
      ,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
      });


      }
      });














      draft saved

      draft discarded


















      StackExchange.ready(
      function () {
      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f217655%2fhow-random-is-my-deck-of-cards%23new-answer', 'question_page');
      }
      );

      Post as a guest















      Required, but never shown

























      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      15












      $begingroup$

      Randomness is not a property of a deck, it is a property of a probability distribution over decks. xkcd said it best:



      enter image description here



      This is not the algorithm you want. What you actually want to check is whether your algorithm, after $n$ iterations, produces a distribution over decks that is approximately uniform. Fortunately, someone has already done the work for you: Persi Diaconis showed that it takes about $7$ riffle shuffles.



      If you don't want to rely on that result, just run your algorithm lots of times and keep track of which decks show up depending on how many times in a row you run it. (Probably you shouldn't keep track of decks themselves but rather the first $k$ cards in them for some reasonable $k$.)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$









      • 2




        $begingroup$
        To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:16








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:19










      • $begingroup$
        Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
        $endgroup$
        – Pureferret
        Oct 21 '12 at 7:00


















      15












      $begingroup$

      Randomness is not a property of a deck, it is a property of a probability distribution over decks. xkcd said it best:



      enter image description here



      This is not the algorithm you want. What you actually want to check is whether your algorithm, after $n$ iterations, produces a distribution over decks that is approximately uniform. Fortunately, someone has already done the work for you: Persi Diaconis showed that it takes about $7$ riffle shuffles.



      If you don't want to rely on that result, just run your algorithm lots of times and keep track of which decks show up depending on how many times in a row you run it. (Probably you shouldn't keep track of decks themselves but rather the first $k$ cards in them for some reasonable $k$.)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$









      • 2




        $begingroup$
        To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:16








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:19










      • $begingroup$
        Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
        $endgroup$
        – Pureferret
        Oct 21 '12 at 7:00
















      15












      15








      15





      $begingroup$

      Randomness is not a property of a deck, it is a property of a probability distribution over decks. xkcd said it best:



      enter image description here



      This is not the algorithm you want. What you actually want to check is whether your algorithm, after $n$ iterations, produces a distribution over decks that is approximately uniform. Fortunately, someone has already done the work for you: Persi Diaconis showed that it takes about $7$ riffle shuffles.



      If you don't want to rely on that result, just run your algorithm lots of times and keep track of which decks show up depending on how many times in a row you run it. (Probably you shouldn't keep track of decks themselves but rather the first $k$ cards in them for some reasonable $k$.)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      Randomness is not a property of a deck, it is a property of a probability distribution over decks. xkcd said it best:



      enter image description here



      This is not the algorithm you want. What you actually want to check is whether your algorithm, after $n$ iterations, produces a distribution over decks that is approximately uniform. Fortunately, someone has already done the work for you: Persi Diaconis showed that it takes about $7$ riffle shuffles.



      If you don't want to rely on that result, just run your algorithm lots of times and keep track of which decks show up depending on how many times in a row you run it. (Probably you shouldn't keep track of decks themselves but rather the first $k$ cards in them for some reasonable $k$.)







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited Dec 23 '18 at 20:23









      Pierre

      1108




      1108










      answered Oct 20 '12 at 22:02









      Qiaochu YuanQiaochu Yuan

      279k32590935




      279k32590935








      • 2




        $begingroup$
        To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:16








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:19










      • $begingroup$
        Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
        $endgroup$
        – Pureferret
        Oct 21 '12 at 7:00
















      • 2




        $begingroup$
        To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:16








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
        $endgroup$
        – Qiaochu Yuan
        Oct 20 '12 at 22:19










      • $begingroup$
        Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
        $endgroup$
        – Pureferret
        Oct 21 '12 at 7:00










      2




      2




      $begingroup$
      To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
      $endgroup$
      – Qiaochu Yuan
      Oct 20 '12 at 22:16






      $begingroup$
      To make my point about evaluating decks vs. probability distributions more explicitly, consider an algorithm which returns the same very good shuffle each time. This is not the algorithm you want even though, every time you run it, a "randomness test" would certify that its output is very "random"! For a more realistic example, consider an algorithm which returns one of $10^{10}$ very good shuffles each time. This is still not the algorithm you want even though you probably wouldn't be able to tell for awhile.
      $endgroup$
      – Qiaochu Yuan
      Oct 20 '12 at 22:16






      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
      $endgroup$
      – Qiaochu Yuan
      Oct 20 '12 at 22:19




      $begingroup$
      There are actually $52! approx 8 cdot 10^{67}$ possible decks and $10^{10}$ of them is really not very many!
      $endgroup$
      – Qiaochu Yuan
      Oct 20 '12 at 22:19












      $begingroup$
      Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
      $endgroup$
      – Pureferret
      Oct 21 '12 at 7:00






      $begingroup$
      Persian Diaconis is actually my inspiration, but my algorithm doesn't do a riffle shuffle. I don't know what the official name is of the shuffle I get the program to do. You're right however, i want uniform distribution of cards after x iterations of this algorithm, and I want to find x. So that between games the same runs don't appear.
      $endgroup$
      – Pureferret
      Oct 21 '12 at 7:00













      3












      $begingroup$

      If you do a few thousand or tens of thousands of runs of your algorithm, you can look at the distribution of where the first (and each other) card ends up. It should be reasonably uniform, and the chi-square test can tell you if the unevenness that you see is to be expected. I would also check how far apart cards that started out together finish. It looks like your algorithm might not split them apart soon enough.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        3












        $begingroup$

        If you do a few thousand or tens of thousands of runs of your algorithm, you can look at the distribution of where the first (and each other) card ends up. It should be reasonably uniform, and the chi-square test can tell you if the unevenness that you see is to be expected. I would also check how far apart cards that started out together finish. It looks like your algorithm might not split them apart soon enough.






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          3












          3








          3





          $begingroup$

          If you do a few thousand or tens of thousands of runs of your algorithm, you can look at the distribution of where the first (and each other) card ends up. It should be reasonably uniform, and the chi-square test can tell you if the unevenness that you see is to be expected. I would also check how far apart cards that started out together finish. It looks like your algorithm might not split them apart soon enough.






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          If you do a few thousand or tens of thousands of runs of your algorithm, you can look at the distribution of where the first (and each other) card ends up. It should be reasonably uniform, and the chi-square test can tell you if the unevenness that you see is to be expected. I would also check how far apart cards that started out together finish. It looks like your algorithm might not split them apart soon enough.







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered Oct 20 '12 at 23:29









          Ross MillikanRoss Millikan

          297k23198371




          297k23198371























              1












              $begingroup$

              Valid or useful or interesting notions of "random-ness" need more than basic probability notions, since the probability of 100 "heads" in flipping a fair coin has the same probability as any other specific sequence of outcomes, but is arguably implausible as a "random" outcome.



              To my mind, the "Kolmogorov-Solomonoff-Chaitin" notion of "complexity" is the apt notion. This is discussed wonderfully and at length in the first part of Li-Vitanyi's book on the subject.



              A crude approximation of the idea is that a "thing" is "random" if it admits no simpler description than itself (!). Yes, of course, this depends on the language/descriptive apparatus, but has provable sense when suitably qualified.



              Given that most card games refer to discernible "patterns" (things with compressible descriptions), a "random" hand would be one lacking two-of-a-kind, and so on. A "random" distribution in a deck would, in particular, have no more pattern in it than might be "expected".



              The question of whether there is a notion of "too-violent-to-be-random" non-pattern-forming in a given context seems to be ambiguous: while long runs of all heads or all tails are suspicious, lack of them is also suspicious. This kind of example suggests that a configuration of a deck of cards to that no one has a playable hand might also be suspicious... depending on the context.



              The operationally significant question of whether or not an innocent-seeming "mixing" can produce "randomness" with relatively few iterations is slightly different. However, from the viewpoint of "complexity", surely the answer is "no", since the hands-of-cards which arise in this way immediately admit a much simpler description than themselves. Nevertheless, or perhaps because of this observation, we can decide to declare a merely relative notion of randomness for a deck of cards, in terms of a small proper subset of "genuine" tests of "randomness/compressibility".



              Of course, if the only "deals" of hands of cards that were allowed were "random" in any strong sense, the probability would be very low that anyone would have a playable hand...






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                1












                $begingroup$

                Valid or useful or interesting notions of "random-ness" need more than basic probability notions, since the probability of 100 "heads" in flipping a fair coin has the same probability as any other specific sequence of outcomes, but is arguably implausible as a "random" outcome.



                To my mind, the "Kolmogorov-Solomonoff-Chaitin" notion of "complexity" is the apt notion. This is discussed wonderfully and at length in the first part of Li-Vitanyi's book on the subject.



                A crude approximation of the idea is that a "thing" is "random" if it admits no simpler description than itself (!). Yes, of course, this depends on the language/descriptive apparatus, but has provable sense when suitably qualified.



                Given that most card games refer to discernible "patterns" (things with compressible descriptions), a "random" hand would be one lacking two-of-a-kind, and so on. A "random" distribution in a deck would, in particular, have no more pattern in it than might be "expected".



                The question of whether there is a notion of "too-violent-to-be-random" non-pattern-forming in a given context seems to be ambiguous: while long runs of all heads or all tails are suspicious, lack of them is also suspicious. This kind of example suggests that a configuration of a deck of cards to that no one has a playable hand might also be suspicious... depending on the context.



                The operationally significant question of whether or not an innocent-seeming "mixing" can produce "randomness" with relatively few iterations is slightly different. However, from the viewpoint of "complexity", surely the answer is "no", since the hands-of-cards which arise in this way immediately admit a much simpler description than themselves. Nevertheless, or perhaps because of this observation, we can decide to declare a merely relative notion of randomness for a deck of cards, in terms of a small proper subset of "genuine" tests of "randomness/compressibility".



                Of course, if the only "deals" of hands of cards that were allowed were "random" in any strong sense, the probability would be very low that anyone would have a playable hand...






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  Valid or useful or interesting notions of "random-ness" need more than basic probability notions, since the probability of 100 "heads" in flipping a fair coin has the same probability as any other specific sequence of outcomes, but is arguably implausible as a "random" outcome.



                  To my mind, the "Kolmogorov-Solomonoff-Chaitin" notion of "complexity" is the apt notion. This is discussed wonderfully and at length in the first part of Li-Vitanyi's book on the subject.



                  A crude approximation of the idea is that a "thing" is "random" if it admits no simpler description than itself (!). Yes, of course, this depends on the language/descriptive apparatus, but has provable sense when suitably qualified.



                  Given that most card games refer to discernible "patterns" (things with compressible descriptions), a "random" hand would be one lacking two-of-a-kind, and so on. A "random" distribution in a deck would, in particular, have no more pattern in it than might be "expected".



                  The question of whether there is a notion of "too-violent-to-be-random" non-pattern-forming in a given context seems to be ambiguous: while long runs of all heads or all tails are suspicious, lack of them is also suspicious. This kind of example suggests that a configuration of a deck of cards to that no one has a playable hand might also be suspicious... depending on the context.



                  The operationally significant question of whether or not an innocent-seeming "mixing" can produce "randomness" with relatively few iterations is slightly different. However, from the viewpoint of "complexity", surely the answer is "no", since the hands-of-cards which arise in this way immediately admit a much simpler description than themselves. Nevertheless, or perhaps because of this observation, we can decide to declare a merely relative notion of randomness for a deck of cards, in terms of a small proper subset of "genuine" tests of "randomness/compressibility".



                  Of course, if the only "deals" of hands of cards that were allowed were "random" in any strong sense, the probability would be very low that anyone would have a playable hand...






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Valid or useful or interesting notions of "random-ness" need more than basic probability notions, since the probability of 100 "heads" in flipping a fair coin has the same probability as any other specific sequence of outcomes, but is arguably implausible as a "random" outcome.



                  To my mind, the "Kolmogorov-Solomonoff-Chaitin" notion of "complexity" is the apt notion. This is discussed wonderfully and at length in the first part of Li-Vitanyi's book on the subject.



                  A crude approximation of the idea is that a "thing" is "random" if it admits no simpler description than itself (!). Yes, of course, this depends on the language/descriptive apparatus, but has provable sense when suitably qualified.



                  Given that most card games refer to discernible "patterns" (things with compressible descriptions), a "random" hand would be one lacking two-of-a-kind, and so on. A "random" distribution in a deck would, in particular, have no more pattern in it than might be "expected".



                  The question of whether there is a notion of "too-violent-to-be-random" non-pattern-forming in a given context seems to be ambiguous: while long runs of all heads or all tails are suspicious, lack of them is also suspicious. This kind of example suggests that a configuration of a deck of cards to that no one has a playable hand might also be suspicious... depending on the context.



                  The operationally significant question of whether or not an innocent-seeming "mixing" can produce "randomness" with relatively few iterations is slightly different. However, from the viewpoint of "complexity", surely the answer is "no", since the hands-of-cards which arise in this way immediately admit a much simpler description than themselves. Nevertheless, or perhaps because of this observation, we can decide to declare a merely relative notion of randomness for a deck of cards, in terms of a small proper subset of "genuine" tests of "randomness/compressibility".



                  Of course, if the only "deals" of hands of cards that were allowed were "random" in any strong sense, the probability would be very low that anyone would have a playable hand...







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited Oct 21 '12 at 0:40

























                  answered Oct 20 '12 at 23:45









                  paul garrettpaul garrett

                  32k362118




                  32k362118






























                      draft saved

                      draft discarded




















































                      Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


                      • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

                      But avoid



                      • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

                      • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


                      Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


                      To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




                      draft saved


                      draft discarded














                      StackExchange.ready(
                      function () {
                      StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f217655%2fhow-random-is-my-deck-of-cards%23new-answer', 'question_page');
                      }
                      );

                      Post as a guest















                      Required, but never shown





















































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







                      Popular posts from this blog

                      Ellipse (mathématiques)

                      Quarter-circle Tiles

                      Mont Emei